Sparky - I really need help (long post)

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Sparky - I really need help (long post)

Post by Sparky on Mon May 06, 2013 6:11 pm

Hi Hoppers, Sparky's Humum here. I really need some advice and opinions on what to do with Sparky.

Last night she and Theo had a bust-up. I was downstairs and heard an almighty commotion from upstairs. I set a new land-speed record up the stairs and found a couple of clumps of Theo's fur in the office and both buns in the litter tray. Theo had Sparky pinned down in a wrestling hold, which was probably quite a good defence from a bun with no front teeth. He was not aggressive towards her at all, making no move to do anything other than keep her confined.

This is the really distressing bit...

Sparky's head was rotating slowly to the left then flicking back to the right. Her eyes were doing the same, rolling slowly forwards until the white showed then flicking back to centre then rolling forwards again. I lifted Theo off her and picked her up - she was really distressed and struggling for breath, even more so than most buns would as one nostril does not work as well as it might. I sat and held her for a few minutes, trying to get her to calm down. I honestly thought she was going to have a heart attack and die in my arms Shocked For a few more minutes her head and eyes kept doing their weird movement - as she got her breath back that gradually stopped and she sat quietly for a few more minutes. At that point her eyes just looked vacant. She came back to herself suddenly, like a switch had been thrown, and started her usual protest of digging at me and wanting down.

I put her down and she appeared to be completely back to normal, ears up and eyes alert. I picked Theo up and checked him over then put him on the floor too. Sparky was a bit skitty and wary of him and a couple of times I stopped her from lunging at him with a stern word. Over the next half hour or so she settled back down and wasn't aggressive towards him although she would often move away when he came near.

At treat time she was quite happy to be right next to him, front paws up on my leg, reaching for the next bit of banana chip.

I decided it would not hurt to reduce their space, so put the side back on the pen, shut them in it and kept an eye on them for an hour or so. By that time they were side by side on the shelf and seemed quite content.

I went to bed with my book. About 40 minutes later there was more commotion I raced into the office and ended up ripping the side off the pen to separate them. Sparky had not got herself quite so worked up this time and calmed down a lot faster. We put the side back on the pen with Theo inside it and Sparky free-range in the office, and that is where they have been since. A couple of times when Theo approached the bars last night, Sparky tried to nip him through them. Since I have been home today she's been completely at ease. I fed their veg either side of the bars she won't eat if she is stressed and they both sat and happily ate within six inches of each other.

I think I have identified the trigger on this occasion. Layla had managed to get upstairs and into the little back bedroom the other day. I didn't realise she'd also left some poops in there under the clothes-horse (I can tell they were hers as they are huge and golden). I think Theo and Sparky went in there, Sparky smelled Layla's poops and went loopy. She has done this before, when her and Gizmo went downstairs to the hall which smelled of other buns and she attacked him. What I do find odd is that I must often smell of other buns. Quite often Layla has been sitting on my lap downstairs for her treats and I come straight upstairs where Sparky climbs over my leg for her treats - she is never bothered about the smell of buns on me.

I'm intending to have some dinner, feed the buns and then let Theo out into the office and see how they get on. I am considering putting Sparky in the pen tonight and Theo free-range, so she does not get territorial about the rest of the office. I'll not trust them together without me in the room until the weekend at the earliest, until I have had a chance to monitor them all day.

I'm actually wondering whether this is just a behavioural issue, or whether there might be something wrong in her brain. I know the pasteurella can cause lesions and I am convinced Molly had one on the brain as she did some very strange things in the couple of weeks before she died. I don't know how far to go down the route of having Sparky physically examined, perhaps put under a GA (quite a big risk, considering her health) and whether they might be able to pick anything up on a head x-ray. I'm tending more towards behavioural as I identified the trigger, but I do find it odd that she goes quite so loopy over another bun's poo. (Is there any benefit to putting other buns poo in her litter tray every day, in the hope that eventually it will stop bothering her? We have plenty of poo to choose from Laughing )

Sparky living permanently on her own is not really an option, she is so much more relaxed now and her quality of life is massively improved, but I don't want poor Theo (with his limited defences) to get hurt, nor do I want to come home from work and find fur everywhere and Sparky dead from a heart attack.

Any opinions, thoughts, advice, ideas for people I could consult all very welcome. We can't go on like this.
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Re: Sparky - I really need help (long post)

Post by cheryl'n'bruce'flo on Mon May 06, 2013 6:43 pm

It sounds as if Theo can handle himself!

My first thought was that it sounded like Theo had reacted to strange behaviour from Sparky. From you description of Sparky it sounds like she had some sort of fit possibly related to her pasturella. That scanning you describe sounds very much like a E.C./pasturella thing to me. My gut instinct is that a vet trip is required - I am wondering whether there is any sort of anti-convulsant meds that could be given.

I guess the best people to contact would be the RWAF for the joint expertise of the vets and the behaviourists.


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Re: Sparky - I really need help (long post)

Post by cheryl'n'bruce'flo on Mon May 06, 2013 6:51 pm

And I would ask the on the wonk forum what they think too.


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Re: Sparky - I really need help (long post)

Post by fiver on Mon May 06, 2013 7:23 pm

cheryl'n'bruce'flo wrote:It sounds as if Theo can handle himself!

My first thought was that it sounded like Theo had reacted to strange behaviour from Sparky. From you description of Sparky it sounds like she had some sort of fit possibly related to her pasturella. That scanning you describe sounds very much like a E.C./pasturella thing to me. My gut instinct is that a vet trip is required - I am wondering whether there is any sort of anti-convulsant meds that could be given.

I guess the best people to contact would be the RWAF for the joint expertise of the vets and the behaviourists.
this was exactly my thoughts too
vibes to sparky and theo and hugs for you Hugs Hugs Hugs Hugs Hugs

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Re: Sparky - I really need help (long post)

Post by FluffSlave on Mon May 06, 2013 7:36 pm

I agree with Cheryl and Rob Thumbs Up

I'm sending loads of vibes to Sparky, Theo and worried humum! Hugs
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Re: Sparky - I really need help (long post)

Post by Amelia66 on Mon May 06, 2013 7:41 pm

I have no helpful advice im afraid, but i wanted to send vibes to them both! hoep Sparky is ok Hugs Hugs
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Re: Sparky - I really need help (long post)

Post by Thumper2001 on Mon May 06, 2013 7:45 pm

Good grief, that must have been scary for you pale

Fingers crossed everybun is ok, and I hope you are too Hugs



Last edited by Thumper2001 on Mon May 06, 2013 8:14 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Added "for you")
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Re: Sparky - I really need help (long post)

Post by iiisecondcreep on Mon May 06, 2013 8:12 pm

No advice either sorry, i hope Sparky is ok and back with Theo soon Hugs
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Re: Sparky - I really need help (long post)

Post by Sparky on Mon May 06, 2013 8:56 pm

Thanks all for the vibes and good wishes, it was certainly a terrifying few minutes - I was pretty sure that if I could get her to calm down and stop hyperventilating she would be ok, but it was very frightening to wait through.

I let Theo out into the office and Sparky kept lunging, so they went into the bath on a blanket. She still tried to nip for quite a while but eventually settled for pretend nips then calmed down quite a bit. She got quite stressed but not into the state she was in last night.



cheryl'n'bruce'flo wrote:It sounds as if Theo can handle himself!

My first thought was that it sounded like Theo had reacted to strange behaviour from Sparky.
I was hoping you'd be along soon Wink

I'm absolutely certain it's all stemming from her. Tonight it has been her who has lunged every time. He doesn't even really try to nip back, he tries to put himself in a position where he can just pin her down to stop her nipping him. He's not been the aggressor once.



cheryl'n'bruce'flo wrote: From you description of Sparky it sounds like she had some sort of fit possibly related to her pasturella. That scanning you describe sounds very much like a E.C./pasturella thing to me. My gut instinct is that a vet trip is required - I am wondering whether there is any sort of anti-convulsant meds that could be given.

I guess the best people to contact would be the RWAF for the joint expertise of the vets and the behaviourists.
I've emailed the RWAF asking to be referred to a behaviourist and to check it would be ok to send Richard Saunders (who has helped with Sparky's pasteurella in the past) a long email. This is the only time I have seen any sign of any sort of fit in Sparky, and I could convince myself it was brought on by the hyperventilating leading to a poor oxygen supply to the brain. One nostril seems to be partially blocked - I don't think this is mucus but tissue damage from the pasteurella - so it is harder for her to breathe hard than it is for 'normal' buns. The problem with a vet trip (although our vet is very good) is knowing what to ask them to do / look for. I suppose a test for EC would be worthwhile, at least....


cheryl'n'bruce'flo wrote:And I would ask the on the wonk forum what they think too.
I'm not quite sure what to ask Laughing

Do you think others might have seen behavioural issues in EC buns, or the fitting?



She's in the pen and Theo is free-range in the office. He's just sitting by the door of the pen staring in with big sad eyes Crying or Very sad

She's a worry, the little monkey No
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Re: Sparky - I really need help (long post)

Post by Big Ears on Mon May 06, 2013 9:11 pm

I've nothing useful to add just wanted to say

Sad

Very, very sad to hear there's been problems between them.

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Re: Sparky - I really need help (long post)

Post by Thumper2001 on Mon May 06, 2013 9:18 pm

He's just sitting by the door of the pen staring in with big sad eyes
Crying or Very sad Crying or Very sad Crying or Very sad
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Re: Sparky - I really need help (long post)

Post by Thumper2001 on Mon May 06, 2013 9:21 pm

On the wonk... You could always just repeat what you described to us and ask for their thoughts? Ask if they think its EC?

It couldn't hurt.

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Re: Sparky - I really need help (long post)

Post by NickieM on Mon May 06, 2013 9:49 pm

What a shame. I thought you had this licked.

With regard to her being OK with you smelling of other buns, I think the food trigger overrides everything. Barley is absolutely terrified of being approached and if I go near him he scoots away, but if I have a treat, he will come over and gently climb up to get it. It could be that she can smell the other buns, but her desire for food just is much stronger than everything else.

Hugs to you


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Re: Sparky - I really need help (long post)

Post by KatieB on Mon May 06, 2013 10:07 pm

Hi
I'm so sorry I've only just seen this hunni- how absolutely blimmin awful.

I, wondering if there is any way if contacting a lady called Anne Mcbride?
She is a behaviourist specialising in buns and is an amazing lady. She is one of the speakers at this years RWAF conference so I would think RWAF may have hear contact details.

I'm so sorry and I wish I knew what to suggest, but I am thinking of you Hun x x


Last edited by Katieb on Mon May 06, 2013 10:21 pm; edited 1 time in total


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Re: Sparky - I really need help (long post)

Post by cheryl'n'bruce'flo on Mon May 06, 2013 10:19 pm

On the wonk are just really knowledgeable in the areas of these sorts of illnesses and I think would be able to help with general advice if you let them know the situation.

I am going to pm you someone else's details who may be willing to help.


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Re: Sparky - I really need help (long post)

Post by fiver on Mon May 06, 2013 11:13 pm

how issparky now ?
sending some more vibes and hugs Hugs Hugs Hugs

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Re: Sparky - I really need help (long post)

Post by gentl on Tue May 07, 2013 1:32 am

How frightening! It sounds to me like Sparkykins had a proper seizure. Theo acted in a logical manner. He kept Sparky from hurting herself and tried to calm her(As well as protect himself!). Sounds like except for a few nips he was not injured.

Sparky needs to see the v.e.t. and have her neurological reflexes examined. It would tell your v.e.t. more if he examined her right after(or during) one of her spaced-out episodes.

Mega vibes for Sparkykins, Theo the tiger and you too! Hugs
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Re: Sparky - I really need help (long post)

Post by Sixer on Tue May 07, 2013 1:29 pm

Oh goodness, how scary for you.

I agree with those who have suggested that Sparky was possibly having some sort of fit that and that Theo reacted to it.

The agression then showed by Sparky may well have been referred aggression due to Layla's poops. Our Herbie is an absolute pain with referred agresssion. He can turn on Hollie in an instant if something, like the wild bun on Saturday triggers it.

Sending loads of hugs and vibes to you all xxx
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Re: Sparky - I really need help (long post)

Post by KatieB on Tue May 07, 2013 2:05 pm

How are they?


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Re: Sparky - I really need help (long post)

Post by Sparky on Tue May 07, 2013 6:02 pm

Katieb wrote:How are they?
Sitting an inch apart on either side of the bars looking like butter would not melt....

If I let him out she will lunge and / or run off. If I put her on neutral ground with him she will lunge and / or run off Rolling Eyes I'm considering putting a pen up outside as it's very warm here at the moment (though the drive is in shade) and chucking them in it for an hour. Not just because it gives me an excuse to sit on my bum on the doorstep with a brew Wink

The fit she had was very much a one-off, and the position of the clumps of Theo's fur indicates that the scuffle travelled along the landing to where they were when I reached them, in the litter tray in their pen. I'm pretty sure the fight triggered the fit, not the other way around. I have some enquiries out so will see what sort of information I can gather over the next couple of days to decide whether Sparky needs medical tests or a psychiatrist Laughing

I left Theo free-range in the office last night. At 5am he finally managed to scale the gate and thundered into the bedroom, all proud, to tell me what he had done. Just in case I had not heard it. He'll be in the pen at nights, then No
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Re: Sparky - I really need help (long post)

Post by KatieB on Tue May 07, 2013 6:12 pm

Oh bless him, he is prob so confused.

Good luck with the re-bond hunni xxx


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Re: Sparky - I really need help (long post)

Post by Sparky on Tue May 07, 2013 6:16 pm

I think he's a bit like Annabelle, and in a bit of a permanent state of mild confusion anyway Wink

Not much bothers him, he is just soft and daft and loving but he is smitten with Sparky so I am sure he would like to be able to spend time with her again without her teeth buried in his flank Rolling Eyes
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Re: Sparky - I really need help (long post)

Post by paullp on Tue May 07, 2013 6:52 pm

We're so sorry to read about what's happened Sad
We hope you manage to find some answers and solutions, and that the buns can safely be with each other again Hugs Hugs Hugs
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Re: Sparky - I really need help (long post)

Post by KatieB on Tue May 07, 2013 7:33 pm

Sparky wrote:I think he's a bit like Annabelle, and in a bit of a permanent state of mild confusion anyway Wink

:

I suspect that might be a nice way to be .....


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Re: Sparky - I really need help (long post)

Post by SarahJane on Tue May 07, 2013 9:04 pm

Im sorry if my post is shorter than it would be normally, im using my tablet as my laptop is in for repair. Domino showed behaviour exactly like this when he saw the girls the first time after his e.c. I dont think it nessecerily means e.c -any condition that causes lesions on the brain will present itself the same manner. I think the best way to proceed is to identify the triggers and work from there really if possible. X



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