cecal problem.. end of my tether!

View previous topic View next topic Go down

cecal problem.. end of my tether!

Post by LeahsRabbits on Wed Oct 09, 2013 1:04 pm

Hi happy hoppers!

For as long as I can remember, both my bunnies have been leaving cecals around the shed.. Now I'm guessing these are 'excsessive' and they are producing too many to eat, as I did see Blossom eat one last night.

Some mornings they'll leave 2 or 3 between them, and some mornings there are at least 8-9.

I've taken them to the vet and described the condition and they were said to be healthy and well, so she sent us away with some bio-lapis probiotic and some panacur wormer.. None in which worked!

At the moment their diet consists of unlimited farm hay, 4 tablespoons of allen&page pellets between them once a day.. Sometimes daily access to grass depending on the weather and a handful of forage on a night (bramble, hawthorn,ash tree leaves, nettle, dandelion) .. When I first began to introduce the forage the problem did get a lot better.. But now its worsened again and I am really failed as to what to do next.

I've tried everything dietry wise -

. Hay only diet
. No treats
. Changing pellet brand
. Taking away all grass and forage
. Re-introducing small amounts of pellets
. Bought different probiotics

And possibly more (my head is blank!). All of which have failed to work so I'm just giving them the diet of a normal bunny now because whatever happens the problem will not change.

We are struggling for money at the moment and can't afford yet another vet trip (yes, I know you're all going to lecture me) but I'm afraid that's how it is Sad

Please will someone help me get to the bottom of this, I've been trying for months on end.. I've sat and cried about it before I'm that fed-up!!
avatar
LeahsRabbits
New Hopper
New Hopper

Gender : Female
Number of posts : 24
Age : 19
Location : Cheshire, UK
Registration date : 2013-09-29

Back to top Go down

Re: cecal problem.. end of my tether!

Post by Thumper2001 on Wed Oct 09, 2013 1:33 pm

Nobody is going to lecture you Smile

Can I suggest trying pro-c.
http://www.petsathome.com/shop/proc-probiotic-100gm-by-vetark-15796

My Thumper had the same problem when she was an old lady and I wouldn't have been without it. I realise you've said you tried bio-lapis but I still think its worth a shot. Different things will work for different bunnies.
avatar
Thumper2001
Elder Hopper
Elder Hopper

Gender : Female
Number of posts : 13220
Age : 33
Location : In a mad house!
Registration date : 2011-04-26

Back to top Go down

Re: cecal problem.. end of my tether!

Post by LeahsRabbits on Wed Oct 09, 2013 1:49 pm

Thumper2001 wrote:Nobody is going to lecture you Smile

Can I suggest trying pro-c.
http://www.petsathome.com/shop/proc-probiotic-100gm-by-vetark-15796

My Thumper had the same problem when she was an old lady and I wouldn't have been without it. I realise you've said you tried bio-lapis but I still think its worth a shot. Different things will work for different bunnies.
Hi, we have some pro-c in the shed.. Hasn't worked Sad

But thank you for the advice!
avatar
LeahsRabbits
New Hopper
New Hopper

Gender : Female
Number of posts : 24
Age : 19
Location : Cheshire, UK
Registration date : 2013-09-29

Back to top Go down

Re: cecal problem.. end of my tether!

Post by Tuckerbunnies on Wed Oct 09, 2013 2:15 pm

Usually when they do to many caecotrophes it's because their diet is to rich for them so reduce their pellets and give them more hay.

Why has your vet put them on panacur did they say.

Tuckerbunnies
Elder Hopper
Elder Hopper

Gender : Female
Number of posts : 15875
Location :
Registration date : 2011-04-13

Back to top Go down

Re: cecal problem.. end of my tether!

Post by fiver on Wed Oct 09, 2013 2:15 pm

I guess you have already tried but what about changing the hay for another type,
I do think that some buns have a genetic problem that causes this and we just have to keep cleaning it up so they don't sit in it.
sending some less cecal vibes HugsHugsHugsHugs

fiver
Elder Hopper
Elder Hopper

Gender : Male
Number of posts : 10155
Age : 57
Location : trammieville/getting better
Registration date : 2011-10-06

Back to top Go down

Re: cecal problem.. end of my tether!

Post by Sixer on Wed Oct 09, 2013 2:27 pm

Hi,

I had this problem with Barney, who was one of the first pair ir rabbits we had. With much trial and error I realised it was due to the pellets we were feeding, Excel to start with and then also Science Selective we tried next. Once we then swapped to Bunny Basics T the problem stopped. I might be completely wrong here but I put it down to the excel and SS being alfalfa based. The Bunny Basics is timothy hay based.

If you have tried cutting out the pellets it seems as though this is not the cause in your case. You seem to have covered all dietary possibilities. My suggestion would be to go back to hay only and then start to re-introduce things one at a time but I assume this is what you have already done.

Occasionally ours leave caecals - usually if they are stressed or over-excited. Herbie - who is a fluffster like your Leo is the most likely of ours to leave them. He is coming up to age 7 now so I try to make sure I keep the hair around his rear end trimmed to make it easier to get to his bottom.

How old are your bunnies? Sometimes older bunnies, especially if they are arthritic struggle to get to their bottoms.

I am currently at work, but I seem to think I have an article on my PC at home about excess caecals. I will check later.
avatar
Sixer
Senior Hopper
Senior Hopper

Gender : Female
Number of posts : 5762
Age : 54
Location : Horwich, Bolton.
Registration date : 2008-07-25

Back to top Go down

Re: cecal problem.. end of my tether!

Post by Father Jack on Wed Oct 09, 2013 4:25 pm

I would suggest somewhere in the region of 15g of pellets per bun twice a day (that's what we're on) along with even more unlimited hay. Try adding other types of hay as well as just normal bale hay Smile
avatar
Father Jack
Forum Ambassador

Gender : Male
Number of posts : 1639
Age : 36
Location : Birmingham
Registration date : 2011-08-08

Back to top Go down

Re: cecal problem.. end of my tether!

Post by Sparky on Wed Oct 09, 2013 5:22 pm

How long have you tried the hay-only diet for?
avatar
Sparky
Senior Hopper
Senior Hopper

Gender : Female
Number of posts : 8037
Age : 105
Location : Outside Theo's baby gate
Registration date : 2011-08-07

Back to top Go down

Re: cecal problem.. end of my tether!

Post by Sixer on Wed Oct 09, 2013 5:46 pm

This is the link to the info I mentioned

http://www.veterinarypartner.com/Content.plx?P=A&A=3012&S=1&SourceID=43

It offers useful advice on the timescale that may be needed on a hay only diet.
avatar
Sixer
Senior Hopper
Senior Hopper

Gender : Female
Number of posts : 5762
Age : 54
Location : Horwich, Bolton.
Registration date : 2008-07-25

Back to top Go down

Re: cecal problem.. end of my tether!

Post by cheryl'n'bruce'flo on Wed Oct 09, 2013 5:57 pm

You are treated Jack, my pair get 30g between them once a day.

What is the hay like? Is it soft or coarse? I am wondering if adding in some different textured hay would help.

My other thoughts are about fresh food. I note that you don't give a veg/herb feed. Herbs that are beneficial for the digestion include fennel (both bulb and leaves), mint, chamomile, dill, lemon balm and lemon verbena. Lemon balm and mint are of the same family of plants and along with the lemon verbena are quite vigorous and easy to grow. I also grow chamomile and fennel in my garden very successfully. Both buns and pigs love all of them.

Do you feed the natural pellets or the growers? The natural is much higher in fibre so would also be more beneficial.

Probiotics - did you put in water. I have found my pair won't drink water with probiotics in it but will happily have it on their pellets so that may be worth trying.

Try not to beat yourself up about the situation. It seems to me that Lionheads are more prone to this problem than other buns. Bruce had this probem. Fortunately it was managed in his case by a move away from excel normal nuggets to either excel light, or science selective normal or either excel or selective mature or oxbow bunny basics. I have no idea what it is about excel adult that causes problems but it does.


avatar
cheryl'n'bruce'flo
Senior Hopper
Senior Hopper

Gender : Female
Number of posts : 7837
Age : 38
Location : Cornwall
Registration date : 2011-08-05

Back to top Go down

Re: cecal problem.. end of my tether!

Post by paullp on Thu Oct 10, 2013 6:46 pm

Round about this time of year (and others!) we get unmunched cecals. It's worse for us when Myrtle does them as they get squished into the carpet NoSomething about their moult has put them off eating cecals so we gave Myrtle fibreplex, its about 10 for a tube and she was fine again in a couple of days!

Patch's unmunched cecals seems to be fixed too as we swapped hay supply. Although they are both meadow hay from local farms the new hay is less coarse.
avatar
paullp
Established Hopper
Established Hopper

Gender : Male
Number of posts : 789
Age : 34
Location : Wiltshire
Registration date : 2012-01-31

Back to top Go down

Re: cecal problem.. end of my tether!

Post by LeahsRabbits on Sat Oct 12, 2013 4:50 pm

Firstly, i'd like to apologise on my late replies, and thank you all for being so helpful!!

Usually when they do to many caecotrophes it's because their diet is to rich for them so reduce their pellets and give them more hay.

Why has your vet put them on panacur did they say.
The veterinary nurse said the panacur was incase any worms were present, to see if it cleared up the situation .. Which clearly it didn't. They get unlimited hay so I cannot give them anymore than I already am unfortunetely!

I guess you have already tried but what about changing the hay for another type,
I do think that some buns have a genetic problem that causes this and we just have to keep cleaning it up so they don't sit in it.
sending some less cecal vibes HugsHugsHugsHugs
Yeah we were going to change their hay type a few days ago, but it's such a pain trying to find suppliers. We drove around for hours trying to find this one place, and when we finally arrived, nobody was home! .. The farm we go to now always has different types of hay.. Some are coarser than others, some are greener etc so I suppose the hay we give is different every time. Yes, I understand the genetic issues that could be involved but surely both of them wouldn't have it? Blossom is 4 now and hasn't had this all his life!

Hi,

I had this problem with Barney, who was one of the first pair ir rabbits we had. With much trial and error I realised it was due to the pellets we were feeding, Excel to start with and then also Science Selective we tried next. Once we then swapped to Bunny Basics T the problem stopped. I might be completely wrong here but I put it down to the excel and SS being alfalfa based. The Bunny Basics is timothy hay based.

If you have tried cutting out the pellets it seems as though this is not the cause in your case. You seem to have covered all dietary possibilities. My suggestion would be to go back to hay only and then start to re-introduce things one at a time but I assume this is what you have already done.

Occasionally ours leave caecals - usually if they are stressed or over-excited. Herbie - who is a fluffster like your Leo is the most likely of ours to leave them. He is coming up to age 7 now so I try to make sure I keep the hair around his rear end trimmed to make it easier to get to his bottom.

How old are your bunnies? Sometimes older bunnies, especially if they are arthritic struggle to get to their bottoms.

I am currently at work, but I seem to think I have an article on my PC at home about excess caecals. I will check later.
Hi, I did change to allen & page as I heard many good reviews about it clearing up messy bottoms.. With their added prebiotic and mint etc. Yeah I was thinking they may get lazy or excited or something, but this has been going on for months so it's obviously something else Sad. Blossom is 4 years old (i've seen him reaching down for cecals and cleaning down there) and Leo has just turned 6 months.

I would suggest somewhere in the region of 15g of pellets per bun twice a day (that's what we're on) along with even more unlimited hay. Try adding other types of hay as well as just normal bale hay Smile
Thank you, I will try that Smile

How long have you tried the hay-only diet for?
All different.. Once they were on it for around 5 days, other times just a day.. Nothing changes Sad

This is the link to the info I mentioned

http://www.veterinarypartner.com/Content.plx?P=A&A=3012&S=1&SourceID=43

It offers useful advice on the timescale that may be needed on a hay only diet.
Thank you, that's really helpful - I'll give it a look later on. Smile

You are treated Jack, my pair get 30g between them once a day.

What is the hay like? Is it soft or coarse? I am wondering if adding in some different textured hay would help.

My other thoughts are about fresh food. I note that you don't give a veg/herb feed. Herbs that are beneficial for the digestion include fennel (both bulb and leaves), mint, chamomile, dill, lemon balm and lemon verbena. Lemon balm and mint are of the same family of plants and along with the lemon verbena are quite vigorous and easy to grow. I also grow chamomile and fennel in my garden very successfully. Both buns and pigs love all of them.

Do you feed the natural pellets or the growers? The natural is much higher in fibre so would also be more beneficial.

Probiotics - did you put in water. I have found my pair won't drink water with probiotics in it but will happily have it on their pellets so that may be worth trying.

Try not to beat yourself up about the situation. It seems to me that Lionheads are more prone to this problem than other buns. Bruce had this probem. Fortunately it was managed in his case by a move away from excel normal nuggets to either excel light, or science selective normal or either excel or selective mature or oxbow bunny basics. I have no idea what it is about excel adult that causes problems but it does.
Hi, the hay is different every time.. Some parts are soft and others are coarse so they do get quite a range.. Although they do prefer the more stalky stuff. They have had mint before and seemed to like it, so i'll have to buy some and see if that helps the problem.. although I doubt it would be beneficial for long-term use Sad.

The pellets are the naturals, I wouldn't feed breeder and grower as it's too low in fibre for my liking!

Do you think the A&P naturals could be making the problem worse? Although it's hard because it's still happening on hay only diets.. I'm thinking it could be something more serious than diet Sad.

Their probiotics are added into their water, they both drink out of it like normal water - In fact, more! They seem to really like the taste of the Pro C ones.. Much better than they did bio-lapis anyway.
avatar
LeahsRabbits
New Hopper
New Hopper

Gender : Female
Number of posts : 24
Age : 19
Location : Cheshire, UK
Registration date : 2013-09-29

Back to top Go down

Re: cecal problem.. end of my tether!

Post by cheryl'n'bruce'flo on Sat Oct 12, 2013 6:30 pm

Remind me, how old are you buns. Bruce appeared to grow out of his cecal issues, although he still gets few when in heavy moult.



avatar
cheryl'n'bruce'flo
Senior Hopper
Senior Hopper

Gender : Female
Number of posts : 7837
Age : 38
Location : Cornwall
Registration date : 2011-08-05

Back to top Go down

Re: cecal problem.. end of my tether!

Post by Sparky on Sun Oct 13, 2013 10:46 am

We tried the Allen and Page pellets for a while as they were highly recommended. Our buns just didn't like them and we struggled to keep their weight up on them. We got to the point in changeover where they were on about half the old food and half A&P and when we went to give them tea, some breakfast (all A&P pellets) would be left in the bowls. This is unheard of for our buns.

We've also had issues with Burgess and sticky bottoms, so we're all now fully on Science Selective. I'd be inclined to try one of the 'sensitive' type foods with yours, as Cheryl mentioned earlier in the thread.

Also, with a hay-only diet, I'd be wanting to give it at least a couple of weeks. This is probably not the time of year to be cutting pellets out of the diet though...


cheryl'n'bruce'flo wrote:Remind me, how old are you buns. Bruce appeared to grow out of his cecal issues, although he still gets few when in heavy moult.
LeahsRabbits wrote:Blossom is 4 years old (i've seen him reaching down for cecals and cleaning down there) and Leo has just turned 6 months.
avatar
Sparky
Senior Hopper
Senior Hopper

Gender : Female
Number of posts : 8037
Age : 105
Location : Outside Theo's baby gate
Registration date : 2011-08-07

Back to top Go down

Re: cecal problem.. end of my tether!

Post by cheryl'n'bruce'flo on Sun Oct 13, 2013 11:04 am

Ta for that Sparky. Are you sure it is both of them? Has is only been happening since Leo arrived? Young buns can produce a lot of cecals whilst their digestive system is sorting itself out.

I had a young bun staying with me briefly a while back. She got fed my way so lots of hay and not a lot of pellets. She had loads of cecals and so I changed her onto adult science selective and they really reduced. I don't know what it is but something about SS seems to really suit buns with excess cecals.

Supreme also do 2 very good products, Fibafirst and their vetcare+. They are both stick like feeds made up of hay. Again I don't know what magic supreme have done with them but when I give them to my pair as a treat I notice that their poo always bulks up and dries out and generally looks fab. You can get the fibafirst in a smaller box for about 3 if you wish to try it.


avatar
cheryl'n'bruce'flo
Senior Hopper
Senior Hopper

Gender : Female
Number of posts : 7837
Age : 38
Location : Cornwall
Registration date : 2011-08-05

Back to top Go down

Re: cecal problem.. end of my tether!

Post by LeahsRabbits on Sun Oct 13, 2013 2:52 pm

Thank you everyone,

Yes I am sure it's both of them, i've seen them both leave them and they both have them stuck on their bottoms!!

Trying to sensitive pellets is a good idea, i'll probably get some and mix them in with their A&P and see if that helps. Both of mine really enjoy them luckily.

They also have a teaspoon of Harringtons mixed with it between them but I doubt it's that causing the problem as it was happening before!!

Remind me, how old are you buns. Bruce appeared to grow out of his cecal issues, although he still gets few when in heavy moult.
Leo - 6 months
Blossom - 4 years

Blossom is having quite a light moult at the moment, but he was leaving them even before!

We changed the hay back to what we used to feed yesterday, and the problem has gotten better already. I could be wrong but I think it could possibly be the hay we feed that's causing it, but we'll just have to see how they get on.
avatar
LeahsRabbits
New Hopper
New Hopper

Gender : Female
Number of posts : 24
Age : 19
Location : Cheshire, UK
Registration date : 2013-09-29

Back to top Go down

Re: cecal problem.. end of my tether!

Post by cheryl'n'bruce'flo on Sun Oct 13, 2013 3:44 pm

That's not surprising. I have heard that some of the hay this year has been quite rich.


avatar
cheryl'n'bruce'flo
Senior Hopper
Senior Hopper

Gender : Female
Number of posts : 7837
Age : 38
Location : Cornwall
Registration date : 2011-08-05

Back to top Go down

Re: cecal problem.. end of my tether!

Post by jolovesbunnies on Sun Oct 13, 2013 4:17 pm

I am sl glad ths has cleared up love and that buns are much better.

Hugs

JO xx

jolovesbunnies
Elder Hopper
Elder Hopper

Gender : Female
Number of posts : 11456
Registration date : 2011-01-02

Back to top Go down

Re: cecal problem.. end of my tether!

Post by Sparky on Sun Oct 13, 2013 5:43 pm

We did have a bale of very fresh, very green hay which seemed to give Theo a disgusting tummy upset (although 15 other buns were fine on it).

We make sure he gets the drier, older hay now and he's been fine.
avatar
Sparky
Senior Hopper
Senior Hopper

Gender : Female
Number of posts : 8037
Age : 105
Location : Outside Theo's baby gate
Registration date : 2011-08-07

Back to top Go down

Re: cecal problem.. end of my tether!

Post by Sponsored content


Sponsored content


Back to top Go down

View previous topic View next topic Back to top

- Similar topics

 
Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum