Psychotic Stewie :(

I'm not avers to the whole ghost argument, but there is a problem with it - you can firmly believe what you saw - you have no reason not to, it is what your sense are telling you. Whether or not the thing you saw was actually there is the thing I dispute. We are very vulnerable to psychosis - that can range from one tiny isolated incident, or something that lives with people for years.

Go back to the story of my friend seeing vampires on her car. This was very real to her. It could be argued that what you saw was a very reduced, but similar thing. If you are prepared to believe that what you saw was a gost, then you also have to be prepared to believe that what my friend saw was vampires? If you do, then your ghost is very valid, if not, then it isn's - could it not have been a tiny blip of psychosis, that you interpreted as a ghost?

Having done some low key experimentation with halucogens in my youth, I'm very well aware of what the mind is capable of conjuring up

I am by no means saying I am right and others are wrong But at the same time, I know what I saw. My OH saw it too. As did Thumper. Surely the odds of 2 people experiencing the same psychotic episode at the same time are zilch?

I don't think animals can SEE spirits as such, I think they can sense them!

Sorry if this seems short or argumentative It's not meant to, busy busy at work

I'm really trying to avoid the discussion being 'right or wrong' - because I dont' think there is a right or wrong, and we're all entitled to believe what we want, and I'm enjoying the discussion

I'm simply stating my concerns about these experiences being labelled as ghostly, when there are other theories and resons for what may have actually taken place. I have a vested interest in psychcosis, a previous boyf. suffred with it a lot, and it was terrifying.

I don't disagree that you know what you saw - it's what your senses were telling you, and that's all we have to percieve and understand the world. I'm not questioning your integrity, but am questioning the reality of your experience, as an objective listener.

I remain firmly on the fence about this, but I like science and evidence!

Surely the odds of 2 people experiencing the same psychotic episode at the same time are zilch?

Afraid not. There's a well know psychotic disorder called 'folie à deux' which is rare, but involves more than one person experiencing the same psychosis together. It can affect groups as well.

More info:
http://emedicine.medscape.com/article/293107-overview
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Folie_%C3%A0_deux

I have photographic evidence of where it landed

Don't suppose it's much use though without photos of it where it started and one of it in mid air

I'll look at your links later, thanks

I must admit, your story is pretty heavy in terms of things actually happenning, and would be a ghost hunters dream! I have no idea whether or not it's because of something we can't explain, so please dont' feel I'm disbelieving you, I'm not, but there have been just as many poltergeist activities that have been explained in science, as haven't

I am certainly aware of groups of psychotic patients getting into arguments about whose psychosis they are experiencing.

I am always very sceptical about any ghost seen whilst people are in bed/getting ready for bed/ waking up. We all will experience hallucintations at some point our live related to dropping off to sleep and waking up. The ones we get as we are dropping off are called Hypnogogic hallucinations and the ones when we are waking are called hypnopompic hallucinations. I get quite a lot of the latter - they are normally ways of my brain trying to wake me up either because I need the loo or because I need to be somewhere. I quite often get hypnopompic visions around horses on a Monday morning because I know I have a riding lesson later in the day. Equally if someone is on your mind you are more likely to see them during in the state between conscious and unconscious. I think a lot of people's stories of ghosts are from these sorts of times - and also when they are drifting off during the day when things are mind numbingly boring. These sorts of mins responses are the same sort of thing that triggers recently bereaved people to have vivid dreams about their lost one.

Also I would want to rule out those experiences people have when they are experiencing fight or flight reactions and producing a lot of adrenaline - they bring you much closer to a psychotic event and so it is not surprising that people see things then. These can be extended times of stress or sudden trauma.

The problem being that most sightings come from one of these 2 brackets. However, like Jay I am not completely closed to the idea of ghosts but rather I am aware of some different explanations. Going back some years before the invention of glasses lots of people would see hares in the moonlight on the way back from the pub and think that they were ghosts. I think that 'ghost' is sometimes a word that simply means unexplained. When you look at other cultures they see psychosis in completely different terms to us - but is it still the same experience but with different names.

Jay wrote:I must admit, your story is pretty heavy in terms of things actually happenning, and would be a ghost hunters dream! I have no idea whether or not it's because of something we can't explain, so please dont' feel I'm disbelieving you, I'm not, but there have been just as many poltergeist activities that have been explained in science, as haven't

Not at all Jay There's nothing wrong with a healthy debate and keeping an open mind

My mum was so pleased when we moved out of there The though of us living there with all these weird things happening was too much for her. It never really bothered me and OH. Well, apart from when things were broken (rather annoying) and my jewellery being stolen off my bedside table. I got everything back apart from my original engagement ring. It definitely 100% went missing in the flat but it might have just got lost because it wasn't on my bed side table where all my jewellery was taken from before (and after) everything else was found in the middle of the floor weeks after it went missing. But where did it go?? I raided the bin and everything I really hoped to find it when we moved but no such luck

The biggest concern I had was leaving Thumper home alone with it

Having said what I said about hallucinations I would also point out that I used to work in a pub where strange things happened all the time. Not just one but several and once all the bootles fell off the optics. Things would go missing most noteably money. This would happen regardless of who was on shift. The company sacked the managers and brought in new and the money still went, staff were sacked the money still went. I left in the end partially because I was fed up of being accused of something I hadn't done. It was a very bizarre place.

Cheryl, that was really interesting, I didn't know about those two forms, and that makes complete sense It's also interesting that people used to think they saw hares in moonlight. why hares? Chinese mythology belives that there is a rabbit living on the moon : https://happyhoppers.forumotion.co.uk/t8941-there-s-a-bunny-on-the-moon

Agree also that the term ghost is not suitable to unexplained sensory experiences.

I guess my basic premice is this: If it is known and understood that animals, including us, experience psychosis, then why do we say that animals are experiencng something to do with 'spirits', but that our experiences are explained as psychotic by some?

If we are prepared to believe that humans experience psychosis, why do we try to fit our personal and sometimes unique psychotic incidents into one bracket (ghosts) but treat other people's psychotic incidents (e.g. vampires) as something that can't exist, simply because we don't think vampired exist - why do we thing 'spirits' exist?

Are they not just another (believable) form of vampire?

cheryl'n'bruce'flo wrote:Having said what I said about hallucinations I would also point out that I used to work in a pub where strange things happened all the time. Not just one but several and once all the bootles fell off the optics. Things would go missing most noteably money. This would happen regardless of who was on shift. The company sacked the managers and brought in new and the money still went, staff were sacked the money still went. I left in the end partially because I was fed up of being accused of something I hadn't done. It was a very bizarre place.

I think that percieved poltergeist activity is the hardest field to disporve, because it involves something physical. But because we (sometimes) can't find the physical solution, we are too eager to have an explainition (understandably) and leap for the obvious choice - which may well be that it is a poltergeist, but may well be some sort of eath or foundation movement that our senses cannot perceive and interpret. Money could have gone missing for a varity of reasons, but unless you know why, you can't say for sure that it has simply vanished.

Given that we know that other animals preceive the world differently to us, it is entirely possible in my mind that these animals are able to experience things that we cannot, just as it is entirely plausible that we can experience things that they cannot.

Me thinks stewie seen a ghost and didnt like him/her. Animals see what we cant, like children, I believe in entities not ghosts as such, but we dont just die and go nowhere some stick around I think.

I think the modern explanations are that they were hares. That at the time they thought they were spirits or ghosts. The mix of poor sight and inebriation meant that when people were walking home at night across the fields that the hares would pop up from their hiding places and go to the next one - remembering that hares were more common then - the man would think it was some srt of spirit glinting and running around in the moonlight as all he could see was the light catching it and the movement. It fits with many old ghost stories out on the moors that people thought they saw spirits but actually they saw shapes that they misinterpreted. We all know about the monster that a tree or the dressing gown on the back of the door can become. And we believe in ghosts because they believed in ghosts. Another culture might have interpreted those experiences in a completely different way.

dizzylynn wrote:Me thinks stewie seen a ghost and didnt like him/her. Animals see what we cant, like children, I believe in entities not ghosts as such, but we dont just die and go nowhere some stick around I think.

But the problem with your view (to me) is that you are a believer - therefore you are looking for evidence to match your beliefs, and will explain these experiences in those terms.
Tell me this: Why can animals see what we can't? As far as I'm aware, we all have rods and cones, lenses and an optic nerve to the brain that translates the information received into something we can understand - rather like a computer does.

What is about us, as children, or adults, that prevents us from seeing the same things as animals - of which we are one?

ETA: given that we know that psychosis happens in animals, why are these experiences ghostly and not psychotic?

cheryl'n'bruce'flo wrote:I think the modern explanations are that they were hares. That at the time they thought they were spirits or ghosts. The mix of poor sight and inebriation meant that when people were walking home at night across the fields that the hares would pop up from their hiding places and go to the next one - remembering that hares were more common then - the man would think it was some srt of spirit glinting and running around in the moonlight as all he could see was the light catching it and the movement. It fits with many old ghost stories out on the moors that people thought they saw spirits but actually they saw shapes that they misinterpreted. We all know about the monster that a tree or the dressing gown on the back of the door can become. And we believe in ghosts because they believed in ghosts. Another culture might have interpreted those experiences in a completely different way.

that makes sense - they expected to see Hares, so they saw hares. Cultural acceptance of ghosts gave this credence

Some adults see things too, and kids, I believe in mediums just no the idiots on tv. I think you have to be in a certain frame of mind to see more, hard to put it in words what I mean.

dizzylynn wrote:Some adults see things too, and kids, I believe in mediums just no the idiots on tv. I think you have to be in a certain frame of mind to see more, hard to put it in words what I mean.

I completely go with this - and as I cant' explain what some mediums do, I have no right to admonsh them, nor would I.

But this "I think you have to be in a certain frame of mind to see more" doesn't answer the question, it's just a personal perspective - what is it about us that prevents us from seeing the same things as other animals?

Do animals also have to be in a certian frame of mind to see these things as well, in your opinion?

dizzylynn wrote:I believe in entities not ghosts as such, but we dont just die and go nowhere some stick around I think.

I'm with Lynn on this

I don't like the term "ghost"

I have no argment one way or the other for ghosts or entities. But if you already believe in these entities, then it's likely that you will match your beliefs to each circumstance you encounter - perfectly natural human thing to do

At the risk of souinding bullish, which I don't mean to (it's only text - so you can't hear how I'm sayng this, but it is with genuine respect for what you're saying, all of you) -I repeat the question - why can't we all see or experience these entities, the same as other animals do?

From what started out quite interesting has turned a bit agressive! I shared my spooky experiences and from my point of view they are true. I wouldn't come onto a forum and make them up!

We know that animals have much better senses than us, better hearing, sight, smell etc. They can do things we can't, and vicer versa. They know things are going to happen before they do, my two can sense the slightest movement from upstairs and get excited.

I don't think we can really compare us to animals. We've just got completely different makeup

I think it is also difficult to bring in animals to this discussion. I can see when Bruce or Flo has reacted to something, and I don't always know what that is. And sometimes, as Jay described, Bruce in particular can maintain that reaction for a long period of time. But I still do not know what he has reacted to. And this is where the 'ghost' as something unexplained comes in. He has reacted - it is unexplained - I say it must be a ghost. I am going to reiterate I don't know what it was. Bruce cannot tell me, I only know he reacted. I am fairly intune with my rabbits and often know something is up by the most minor change in behaviour. But it is only my sleuthing that can determine what is wrong. If it is 7.30 and they come and stare at me it is fairly probable that I have not got around to feeding them yet and they expect feeding at 7. I can make that link because when I feed them they stop staring at me. But when Bruce or indeed Rocky next door spends hours nervously thumping I generally have no clue what that is about. As human I can ask fellow humans what their experience was and they can tell me in great detail and having ruled out everything out the ghost explaination may seem realistic. However Bruce cannot tell me what he has experienced, all he can communicate to me is that he is nervous and frightened. Expanding on Jay's thoughts; Flo is often not the least bit bothered by whatever has freaked Bruce in most instances. She will just carry on as normal. If it is a ghost and animals can see them why does it not bother her? I am reasonable sure her hearing is better than Bruce's but her eyesight is worse. Therefore sleuth that I am says that Bruce saw something that scared him -a cat, a hawk, a flash - that Flo did not. I don't believe that the he is seeing ghosts. But I don't know as he cannot tell me.

BTW I do not mean this agressively and I don't believe Jay does either. As far as I see it, it is a discussion of ideas and beliefs.

icedancer wrote:From what started out quite interesting has turned a bit agressive! I shared my spooky experiences and from my point of view they are true. I wouldn't come onto a forum and make them up!

We know that animals have much better senses than us, better hearing, sight, smell etc. They can do things we can't, and vicer versa. They know things are going to happen before they do, my two can sense the slightest movement from upstairs and get excited.

I don't think we can really compare us to animals. We've just got completely different makeup

I'm not saying your making anything up, I promise you, I've been very careful to avoid that because I don't believe it. What I'm saying is that you have a belief, and explain your experiences within that belief - nothing wrong with that. I have an alternative belief that isn't comitted either way, so whilst you have the answers becuase of your journey to belief, I am still on that hourney - and don't have the answers - which I'm tryin tp find. I was hoping you and others can help.

No need to be offended, I'm not attacking you or your beliefs

ETA:I find this interesting

I don't think we can really compare us to animals. We've just got completely different makeup

We are animals. This is whyI keep asking this question, because I do not seperate us in terms of biology, physiology and psychology from other animals. Each animal perceives the world differently because their needs mean that their senses develop differently. To bracket every other animal as one, and then set us aside based on our differences in world perception, doens' make a lot of sense to me.
For instance, bats cannot see - so their ears are amongst the best hearting in the animals kingdom. Sharks can smell one drop of blood from a mile away. Do all these other animals have the ability to experience entities. in your opinion? .. end of ETA

If it helps, I'll tell you a bit of background, which may explain how I feel...

I have taken hallucogenic mushrooms a few times, a lot of years ago.
On each occassion it was an absolutely incredible and positive experience.

I was able to hear insects in the grass, I could see the life energy travelling through trees, from base to leaves, like flow of water, but insode the tree.

I have seen the wind circulationg around the wings of birds, and heard their heart beats.

I only allowed these experiences to happen in nature, because I wanted to understand more about the world I inhabit.

I can safely say that without these experiences, it's unlikley that I would be doing what I do now.

I felt like a veil had been lifted - a filter, that enabled me to see information that I couldn't normally see.
In human terms, I explained the reason for this as quite simply that if we were able to see that amount of informatioin all the time, we could never get anything done, we would all be stood in absolute awe and wonder at the world. If we were less intelligent, and had no perception of mortality or ego, then this may not be such a bad thing

In scientific terms, I explained this as a chemical reaction to psilocybin, the active ingredient in said mushrooms, that had distorted my percetion of the world.

Given that we prescribe drugs, like anti depressants, that create chemical changes in the brain to produce an altered perception of the world, I am more inclined to believe the latter - but am very grateful for the experineces I had.

Saying this, because I want to demonstrate that I'm not adverse to everything you are talking about - I have seen things I shoudl never have seen, but I can explain those experinces in science. That doesn't mean that this is the sole explaination, but that it is one that I am able to comprehend., because itis based in research and peer lead science.

Guys. I'm out now for the rest of the day, hope to pick this up later, interesting talk

This virus must be going to ma brain cos everything just went right over my head lol, might read this again when not so bunged up, think wee bit clearer. As for aggressive, could be fact I am bit fussy headed last few days but dont think any aggression is meant.
Hows wee stewie today.

I can't answer this. Nor can science thus far, because science can't even decide if these entities even exist or not

I've never thought about this before and I just drafted a lengthy reply then decided it sounded stupid so deleted it

Perhaps "they" are only seen/sensed (whatever) when they want to be. And to their target audience only. How "they" would do that, I do not know.

But it would explain why only SOME humans claim to be able to actually see/sense them. I also don't believe EVERY animal can see/sense them. But it certainly seems like animals are more sensitive to "them" than us.

*shrugs* I don't know. I think we could come up with loads of different possibilities but unfortunately we'll never really know

I believe 100% in spirits, supernatural and related visiting but I know many people do not and I respect that. As for mediums I think most are probably charlatans and they ruin it for the ones who are genuine. I agree with you Thumper dear, some of us can see them and so can some animals too, but not all.

Hugs

JO xx