We've got some options...

Further to my distraught post yesterday about Mr Mo, after having a night to sleep on it and think a bit more rationally, I have talked it over with Mum and we do have a few options moving forward.

1) Chloe from Fat Fluffs knows a vet about 40 minutes away that does conscious dentals. I am going to try and ring her tomorrow and find out a bit more about this e.g. how the procedure works, prices etc. Mum is willing to take us there if it's a possible solution - I personally don't know if he would cope with the stress of it all, but that's why I'm going to enquire. Does anyone have any experience of these - good or bad?

2) I am going to book an actual consultation discuss the molar extraction with my rabbit savvy vet. I think this could definitely be a possible option for us if it worked with Bobby (thank you Bobby's mummy for the suggestion!). If she is adverse to the idea I am going to look into getting a second opinion.

So this is what we have to work with moving forward. I need to chase this up and look at doing everything we can for him rather than becoming all 'doom and gloom' and defeatist. The only thing that is not happening is he will not be being re-homed (anywhere other than to Fat Fluffs, which is not possible in the near future due to an outbreak of Pasteurella in Chloe's permanent group which he would be joining). This might be a controversial decision but it is what I feel is best for him and his future.

Would appreciate all your guy's opinions on these possible avenues and just want to say a massive thank you to all of you for your continued support with this nightmarish ongoing problem. You are all fantastic

I am glad you have been able to talk this over with you mum love and come to some decisions.  I think it is a good idea speaking to the rabbit savvy vet about dentals and I am also glad he is not now going to be rehomed.  At least now you have a few paths to chose from and I am glad you are feeling more positive.

Hugs
JO xx

I'm so pleased to hear this!
I think either option is a good step forward so I would pursue them both.

In preparation for your consultation with your vet, I would do as much research as you can about dental disease and treatment options, the more informed you are beforehand, the more you will understand what your vet has to say, and you will know the best questions to ask.

You know Mr Mo best and how likely he will cope, but I think it would be worth a shot at the conscious dental to see how he is with it, you will never truly know until you try

If your vet is unsure whether to go ahead with extractions but is open to the idea, you could always ask if they would be willing to try taking 2-4 of the worst teeth out first (theres 22 molars in total) and see if that makes a difference. If he could go 12 - 16 weeks between dentals then that is a step in the right direction. If the teeth did grow back they'd take about a year at normal growth rate to get to a length that could cause a problem, and there is the chance that his teeth could grow back in a better position

But do keep us updated with how you get on
Lizzy

I've just got off the phone with Rebecca Roe in Cotteridge (the vet who Chloe recommended).

I'm not 100% sure what I think, so I'd appreciate some opinions.

She says she will be clipping his back molars - not burring - which makes me slightly concerned. She also says that she will be doing the procedure blind and so she can't guarantee 100% that it will all go smoothly - but she has been doing this for over 15 years. Apparantly, there is a small risk of cutting a major blood vessel at the back of the throat which can cause death, but there is no more risk in this (and potentially much less) than putting them under a GA. The other thing that is frightening me a bit is that she said that it is not totally painless...

What do you all think? Is this cruel?

These procedures would be costing £18.50 + VAT time vs. £135-£150 every 8 weeks. That is the major difference and the thing that makes it sustainable for me cost-wise...

I'm also speaking to my vet on Monday via the phone where I am going to enquire about molar extraction.

I can understand why you are doubtful about this. I recall back in the 1990's when rabbit dental were not quite so regular a thing as today, I had a lovely crossbred lop buck, Mr Starbuck, who suffered from maloclusion and had to have upper and lower front teeth clipped every couple of weeks. I hated having that done, it was without any sedation and I used to fret about incase a tooth should crack lengthwise or shatter. Doing molars sounds doubly scary. I wonder if there's a chance of you speaking with an owner who regularly has this preceedure done?
My main worry would be keeping the rabbit still and quiet while the operation was carried out and how it is possible to do the job without leaving sharp edges on the tooth. It may sound worse than it is, but it does sound scary.
I hope your vet can come up with something less woorisome. Doesn't molar extraction require the removal of the corresponding molar on the upper/lower jaw?
How many teeth does Mr Mo have done? £135 - £150 is a lot. Even my old vets, who were after every penny and even charged for the 3 month old newspaper lining Loll's cage, only charged £89 for a dental. My present vet does a dental for £55 - £75. I know it varies greatly upon where you live but your vet seems pricey.

The thing that adds on the extra cost is the fact he has his all over shave at the same time. He has Angora in him and with him being such a flighty and nervous little thing, grooming can be really difficult. It is however something I am considering working on, as if we could get this off the bill that would help.

The current break down is something like:

GA: £40
Dental: £20
Shave: £20

Then he'll have £5 worth of Metacam injections, £5 worth of gut stimulant and sometimes his nails done whilst he's under as well. Plus the fact he is there for the whole day which they probably factor in, and the VAT is normally wopping

I am nervous about the conscious dental though. I am going to ask my vet for her thoughts on it.

I suggest you read this http://www.rabbitwelfare.co.uk/?section=policies.html

If he is very nervous then surely a conscious dental would be really difficult. How would he be restrained? That, and the possibility of their leaving sharp edges on the tooth, would be my main worry. I'd really want to talk about it with other owners.

Oh dear, I don't know what to suggest. Reading up on things and "knowing" Mr. Mo I feel let's say doubtful.
I don't want to spoil this option and would deffo ask the vet(including a second opinion sorry) and see whether there are other hoomins that have got experience. 
This is sooo tricky. I cross thumps and all for you both that a solution can be found.

To answer woodwenchs question, no the corresponding molar does not have to be removed. Rabbits have 6 upper molars and 5 lower ones on each side, and they are staggered, so I think the only time removal of an additional tooth would be required was if you had lower 1 or 5 removed as it could potentially leave upper 1 or 6 with nothing to grind against.

From what you have described about the conscious dental, its not something I would go for with any of my buns.

I think I have pretty much ruled out the conscious dental. The more I read about it, and knowing Mr Mo like I do, I just don't think that's an available option.

I am going to discuss the molar extraction with my vet on Monday, and if she doesn't go for it I might go for a second opinion. Lizzy, do you have any contact details for Bobby's vet that I could pass on?

£20 to shave him seems a bit steep!! To have zelda put under, her belly shaved, ultrasound done and urine sample taken and tested plus antibiotics only cost me £40, including vat!!

Wow - you're lucky!

£20 possibly is a bit much but I'm happy to pay that for the excellent care and treatment I know he'll receive whilst at my vets. Even knocking £20 off the price wouldn't make a big enough difference to make it affordable.

Also, Lizzy, if you don't mind me asking - how much were Bobby's extractions? Just trying to put something aside in case we do end up going ahead with them.

Just a thought though I know you're not going through with the conscious dental, since you'd have to have him put under to be shaved, you'd still have to spend out the £60 or so to have him shaved! so you'd still be spending £80 which is better than £135 but I'm guessing not all that affordable. The thought of a conscious dental does give me the willies.

Would Chloe take Mo once the pasturella has calmed down?

Potentially - unfortunately she can't put any sort of time frame on when that will be as it is so notoriously difficult to treat. I have asked her to get back in touch if she gets things under control at her end.

You may be able to condition him to the clippers [first the sound and then the clippers] to be able to do it yourself in small bits. Or even trimming him with scissors very slowly while someone else feeds him. To get the price of the shave/ga off the bill.

with regards to the teeth i would check out the options you have then make a decision. To be honest if its between that and having him put down anything is worth a shot.

The conscious dental sounds grim.

There's absolutely no way in hell your ever manage to do that to either of my two.

The stress of that would probably be enough to kill Junior - he just about had a heart attack when I tried to cut his nails. Emptied his bladder and lay shaking on the flor for a good hour.

Molly would fight it. Nobody in the room would have any fingers left. Or skin on their hands.

Sorry but it's a definite no from me.


Can I ask why you wouldn't rehome him to anyone other than Chloe? I understand you not wanting to hand him over to a person, but what about other rescues?

Chloe is the only one I know of who would be taking him and keeping him. If there was another rescue with a similar proposal I'd consider that also.

Great

That's something we can all have a think about. Just in case your other ideas don't pan out

Trust just a thought would you consider to contact Tuckerbunnies?

I did already discuss it with Maysie a while back and she wasn't able to help unfortunately

Does anyone know of any other rescues which take buns on permanently with dental issues?

My only apprehension now with sending him to Chloe is if she is going to be using these conscious dentals for him anyway? I just don't like the sound of them, and she is the one who pointed me in that direction...

My vet is Mrs Yvette Rowntree BVSc, Cert GP (ExAP), MRCVS Registration date: 03/07/2007, Reference number: 6457294
at Ambivet Ilkeston, Little Hallam Hill, Ilkeston, Derbyshire
Phone: 01159 309729

They have a website but unfortunately its not updated that often http://ambivet.com/branches/ilkeston

The branch is a new building only 2 years old and was built as a specialist exotics clinic. Its part of a small group of vet surgeries and they run their own 24hr hospital in the next town about 7 miles away.

Yvette did the molar extractions as part of the regular dental, which costs about £80 - £90 + meds - usually just metacam or stasis meds as well if you need it.
That includes a pre-op appointment (if needed) on the morning of the surgery, patient care for them (& their friend) for the day, and 2 post op checks at 3 and 10 days PO.

Included with the surgery is the GA, a painkiller shot and a gut stimulant shot, a syringe feed just after they've woken up and another later in the afternoon if needed, also while the bun is still asleep if they are coping well under the GA, the nurse will give a quick groom and claw clip if requested, while Yvette is working on the mouth. The 2 senior nurses Sam and Amy are both, bunny lovers and are very experienced working with Yvette and with administering GA to buns.
They are also highly aware of the immediate aftercare that can really benefit a bun and make a good recovery. They also don't mind, and somewhat encourage you taking in some of the buns things from home, so things like a small bed or blanket, litter trays, their litter, their brand of food and hay, a selection of veggies and treats you know they like, a couple of toys for them to have and they definitely encourage bringing wifebuns or husbuns along for the day.

A regular consultation costs about £25 and their meds are sold at very reasonable prices

FluffSlave wrote:I did already discuss it with Maysie a while back and she wasn't able to help unfortunately

Does anyone know of any other rescues which take buns on permanently with dental issues?

My only apprehension now with sending him to Chloe is if she is going to be using these conscious dentals for him anyway? I just don't like the sound of them, and she is the one who pointed me in that direction...

No I don't but I know there are rescues that won't allow an animal to be sold on or given to someone else if the adopting person can't look after them. Ie really it s a foster agreement. Furry friends Coulsden in Surrey are operating such s scheme . You could contact Anna or Emma for more details.
I guess it is likely that others do so too.
No i don't like the sound of this either.
How far would it be for you to travel to the vet mentioned above?

I am so sorry that you feel that you are no longer able to manage Mo's dental problems These are my thoughts.

Conscious dentals - whilst I feel very uncomfortable with the thought of them I think if I was in your position then it would be something I would consider. I would think the rabbit would be given a light sedative - have you asked that question. Also I would think that it would just be the spurs that are clipped not the whole tooth. Can you find out in more detail what the procedure entails.

Molar removal - my understanding of this is that molars, because of the tooth roots are difficult to remove and that the visible tooth may break off. (My knowledge may be out of date though). How much would such a procedure cost - a lot more than a regular dental I would imagine, with no guarantee of success.

I do not think a rescue would be willing to take Mo on with his dental history unless they already had a home lined up for him. I don't think you can expect a rescue to take him and then pay for dentals whilst waiting for someone to adopt him. For me, if I was giving up a rabbit under such circumstances I would want to give the rescue a sizeable donation towards his care.

I do know of a couple of rabbit sanctuary's - www.rainbowrabbits.co.uk is one and I can put feelers out to the other.

I wish I could do more. Is Chloe willing to take Mo in the future once the pasteurella situation has calmed down?

He's not right. He is eating but not properly i.e. still not much hay. And he's choosing to sit inside when the garden is available (even bringing himself in at times) which is just not like him.

All good points Sixer. I would not feel comfortable sending him to any rescue that would be looking at rehoming him anyway. Rehoming is not really an option.

At this point I am exhausted. I am going to speak to my vet still but I can see this ending with us having to let him go - I can't see being able to afford several potential molar extractions and we can't get him to Lizzys vet that frequently i.e. For check ups etc.

I just feel as if he hasn't bounced back nearly as well this time and maybe he is getting a bit fed up with it all