Arrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrgh Rabbits and Their Teeth !!

Honestly, I give up. I now have yet another probably Dental Bun whose problems have come on at the age of about 4 despite being on a hay based diet since 8 weeks of age.

Danny started sneezing the day before yesterday, by yesterday it was obvious he needed to be on abx. This morning I just had a feeling that his Snuffles ( which he has never had before ) was a secondary symptom so I checked his mouth and he has a huge ulcer on his left cheek I cant see the offending spur as I suspect its on the very back molar and I did not want to hurt him by pushing the otoscope too far back as the ulcer really is nasty
Danny has been eating normally and not drooling or showing any obvious signs of a Dental problem. But he has been chewing lots of wood, not 'normal' for him. He has had some pain relief and he will be having a GA tomorrow. I dont understand why Dental problems should develope in an adult Bun when they have always had a good diet. Surely congenital Dental issues would develope before the age of 4 ?
I have a 7 year old who suddenly developed a severe malocclusion. She too has been on a good diet since 8 weeks of age and until the age of 7 never needed a Dental. Now she needs them every 6 weeks.

We've got buns like that too and most of them are brilliant hay eaters, it's not a 'poor quality' hay thing either, so frustrating!

That's strange. Do you think it could be genetic? Although that still doesn't explain the late onset.

It really is frustrating.
All cases of congenital Dental Disease I have seen have become evident before 1 year of age.

My Vet was talking with some other Bunny Vets and a lot of them are saying they are seeing several cases of late onset Dental problems despite the Bun being on a good diet. Some of the Vets think its that the dynamics of the jaw change with age. Possibly due to osteoporosis. This, in turn, effects the occlusion of the teeth.

Then I had my neighbours 11 year old Nethie come to stay. She had never had hay in her life and was fed white bread crusts, cabbage and a bit of grass.
She had perfect teeth.................

I think I've told you about my Abby before...She always had fantastic teeth until the age of 5, when she suddenly started to need dentals every 2 weeks

I do wonder whether house buns or shed buns don't get the required levels of Vitamin D, so gradually develop these problems? Certainly Abby's problems came on over winter whilst she was living in the garage (her bonded partner has lung trouble so can't stay out during winter). I was speaking to a friend recently, and she agreed that her dental bun needs his teeth doing more frequently during the winter.

Is it possible that either:
1. They sustain a knock to the jaw that may cause it to misalign or that the bone 'shifts' in later life?
2. As Amy says they develop some kind of nutrient deficiency, though that said in incisors you can see poorer grade enamel.

Just a few guesses really

Thats really worrying that they can develop so late in life I was thinking I was safe form them as mine are over 18 months, apparently not.

One Vet said to Christabel ( my Vet ) 'Well Rabbits are just not meant to live for 7 years '.........................

Christabel's practice is in new premises now and she's bought lots of new diagnostic equipment. One item being an all-singing-all-dancing digital Xray machine. So we are hoping to get some detailed info as to what is going on.

Why is nothing 'Rabbity' ever straight forward

My vet today said rabbits are not native to this country and do not get as many vitamins from the sun etc here as the weather is not so good. they do not absorb calcium as well without the sunshine vitamins so their teeth become poorer... is this true or a load of twaddle?

That does sound a little frustrating, poor bun.

It is worying isn't it. I must admit I had wondered about the vitamin D and sunlight thing. Wellie's root infection came on over winter and while he'd never needed a dental I've often wondered if he was not getting anough sunlight, so not enough vitamin D, so not getting enough calcium to his bones, this case his jaw. Maybe thats a bit far fetched i dont know, but i do hate it when the weather's real rainy and buns need covering for days cos i worry bout them not getting enough sunlight
Sending loads of vibes for Danny for tomorrow. x
Buns are such a worry aren't they.

If I remember it correctly Bunnies dont need Vit D to metabolise dietary calcium if there is enough of it

Quote from the Textbook of Rabbit Medicine by Frances Harcourt-Brown :

' In Rabbits passive absorption of calcium is efficient. If dietary calcium concentrations are adequate it appears that Vitamin D is not required for calcium absorption' ( Ref : Bourdeau et al 1986. Kamphues 1991 ) However, vitamin D increases intestinal absorption of calcium and is required if dietary calcium levels are low ( Ref: Brommage et al 1988 ) '

Ah well thats nice to know. she knows what she's talking about!
I must admit while searching for info on Wellie' condition I just found stuff about vitamin D and bone density etc and I've worried ever since.
I shall try and calm down about it now!

So from the text above, I assume my vet was talking sense... I always get a bit worried when they start talking cos I sometimes think I know more than them!!! Both of mine are outside bunnies, but Pickle's area is a litte "darker" than Twinkles.... I hope he gets enough sunlight!

But if having no sunlight was an issue there would be a lot of house bunnies with teeth problems wouldn't there.

My personal view is that some rabbits absorb calcium better than others. I agree that diet plays a bigger part, but didn't FHB do a study which showed that rabbits kept in a shed over winter were Vit D deficient? (I don't have access to my medical books at work, so can't check it ATM)

As a slight aside...I have no evidence to back this up, but I am very much of the opinion that the amount of calcium in the diet has very little to do with the formation of bladder sludge, and everything to do with the individual rabbit's ability to absorb calcium.

Babybunnies4 wrote:But if having no sunlight was an issue there would be a lot of house bunnies with teeth problems wouldn't there.

Would be really interesting to know the ratio of teeth problems in rabbits without outside access to those with regular access outside.

It would be really difficult to collect figures though, because lots of house rabbits are outdoors during the day, and lots of hutch rabbits probably spend most of their time under cover

POLL!!!

Jack's-Jane wrote:One Vet said to Christabel ( my Vet ) 'Well Rabbits are just not meant to live for 7 years '.........................

Christabel's practice is in new premises now and she's bought lots of new diagnostic equipment. One item being an all-singing-all-dancing digital Xray machine. So we are hoping to get some detailed info as to what is going on.

Why is nothing 'Rabbity' ever straight forward

Sorry to hear about your buns Jane, it does seem strange. My vet has one of those X-ray machines, it's brilliant, takes 2 mins to get a detailed look at his teeth
Someone else mentioned about sunlight elsewhere and I'd never heard of this before. There will be housebuns who never go out (flat, no outside access), so you may find some correlating evidence, although I know that the amount of Calcium we ingest has little to do with our teeth, and if you don't have enough iron, it doesn't get into your system anyway...ut we aren't buns, but there has to be some bilogical reactions that are similar.

Expanding this further, I wonder what the ratio is regarding Buck/Doe late onset Dental Disease ( despite a good diet all their life )

Lack of oestrogen plays a part in osteoporosis in post menapausal/ amenorrhoeic women. So does spaying a Doe increase their risk of osteoporosis

Jack's-Jane wrote:
Lack of oestrogen plays a part in osteoporosis in post menapausal/ amenorrhoeic women. So does spaying a Doe increase their risk of osteoporosis

Yes, I think you're right. If you google 'osteoporosis rabbit' you find numerous studies of induced osteporosis in rabbits carried out for medical research. For example:

Quote:

To characterize an experimental model of osteoporosis in rabbits induced either by ovariectomy (OVX), glucocorticoids, or by a combination of both.

Here's the link to the study (I don't know whether you'll be able to read it without a subscription though):

http://cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=19949502

Amy