welfare question-how it gets so bad

Hiya, I was talking to Matthew last night about Theo's latest rescue, I said how the lady who had that gorgeous rabbit with the terrible teeth said she thought it was straw stuck in his mouth Quite apart from that being a totally stupid excuse, even if she did indeed think that why didnt she just take the straw out?

Anyway it sparked a conversation between M and I that threw up more questions than answers and I thought I would ask the people who are, sadly, experts.

How long does it take a rabbits teeth and nails to get in that awful, long, curled condition?

Does it happen because of near starvation or bad diet or both? If a rabbit is fed tesco value guinea/rabbit muesli every day will it happen? (or indeed any other brand! I am just being a bit sarcy there as I get wound up with the multi-purpose pet food)

What causes it - I gather a diet of nothing but muesli and nothing to chew will do the teeth in - as for the nails is it just sitting still in a hutch all the time? Please fill in any gaps for me that I am missing.

With regards to the muesli question, Matthew asked why rabbits in years gone by kept in hutches and not fed to the standard we expect now did not present with these issues at such an alarming rate? We are referring back to our parents and grandparents generation who would keep a rabbit in a hutch for the kids and feed it whatever but you dont really hear of long teeth/nails issues. I wonder if rabbits were mainly kept on farms and then fed hay as that was easiest which takes the teeth down better. After all in wartime etc you dont see people buying special muesli just for the rabbit... Why is this missing from pet rabbit history?

I guess that is about it for now... hope I have been able to explain what I am trying to. Sorry if I have got it wrong. I am just trying to piece together what happens in the months before a rabbit ends up in rescue in that condition, and what the owners of that rabbit have to do to get it there. Thanks. xx

What a brilliant post Erin, I'll be interested to hear the answers too

I wish I had the answers, but all I can do is add another question to the list - how long have we been keeping rabbits in hutches as pets like this?

Erin mentions wartime, but I know that during the war my Uncles made a small black market fortune selling rabbit meat so I'm not sure there were many pet rabbits. Going further back I've seen false warrens and stuff from the 17th Century onwards, but I've never come across a reference to rabbits being kept as pets.

I read in my book on Tibetan Terriers that a lot of dog breeds were starving out in wartime, so the lady in England who kept TT's going did it by breeding rabbits to provide meat for the dogs. Which obviously turns my stomach as it just doesnt sit well with me but I am not in charge of nature and I recognise not all animals are veggie like I am.

I really want to piece together almost a timeline or series of events that lead up to rabbits being taken in to rescues with teeth and nails like that. I cant verbalise exactly why it is so important for me to know but it is. Thanks for understanding what I was trying to convey.

and for that matter I give my cats and soon to be dog animal meat to eat so I really wont get judgey pants with farmers etc who bred to feed other animals/people.

senatorvass wrote:and for that matter I give my cats and soon to be dog animal meat to eat so I really wont get judgey pants with farmers etc who bred to feed other animals/people.

Judgey pants Love it!

One of the reasons I came to this forum is because of judgey pants people who didn't like farmers. I'm going to research the history of keeping rabbits later if I get chance - I'm intrigued now.

What an absolutely fantastic post Erin I will be keen to hear the answers too x

The keeping of rabbits domestically can be traced back to the Romans who I believe introduced them into our countryside in the first place when they escaped from the purpose built enclosures. They were of course kept for meat & fur, but from what I gather, lived a relatively natural life within the enclosures themselves. They were also kept by monks who are accredited with being the first to breed for appearences.

There is a book called Stories Rabbits Tell which is well worth reading for this kind of information but be warned, it does go into quite some details relating to the fur & meat industry which may be distressing. There is also a lot of info relating to the introduction of Myxi & VHD as a means of 'pest control'.

Thanks for that info Sooz. But can you clue me in on the cause of the effect we see in rescue rabbits i.e. long teeth/nails. How long does it take to get to that point and what factors contribute to it? I must admit I dont think I would be able to read that book. That is really fascinating about the Romans! They had their hand in every jam jar didnt they.

The causes of overgrown teeth & maloclussion relate to genetics and/or diet for the most part. Certain breeds are particularly prone to having a dental misalignment due to their aesthetically desirable qualities, two good examples being Mini Lops & Netherland Dwarfs. These two breeds are built around a reduction in size and weight and in the Mini Lop inparticular a domed head and stumpy, flat face are desirable. Also, in order for the ears to lop within lop breeds the skull is malformed when compared to 'up eared' bunnies.

These malformations usually result in the upper and lower dental plateaus meeting incorrectly which means the teeth do not wear evenly against each other, some may not even make contact at all. Nethies are particularly prone to problems with their incisors which may present as an 'over bite', that is uppers extending too far over the lowers or an 'under bite' with the lowers extending past the uppers meaning neither set is in occlusion, and therefore wear, with the other. These are the teeth that we usually see curling in these extreme cases. Depending on severity they can be burred on a regular basis or removed completely, though the incidence rate of them growing back is relatively high.

Diet is also a contributing factor, though where diet is solely to blame it will usually relate to problems with the molar teeth rather than incisors. Rabbits need to chew their food in a side to side motion to maintain an even level of wear over the dental plateau and foods which help them to do this are those such as hay, grass, plant matter and other roughage which needs to be ground down. By contrast concentrated feeds such as pellets are consumed in an up and down chewing motion which causes uneven wear across the teeth. There is also little use for the incisors when it comes to eating these 'bite sized' pieces, as they do not need cutting down for consumption.

As an aside it is worth noting that a rabbit with primary incisoral maloclussion is highly likely to have secondary molar maloclussion too.

What an interesting topic, as I see it and as I am led to believe, rabbits kept years ago were fed mainly on hay and not pellets or special food and certainly no treats, they were also fed grass and dandelions and more natural things which included kitchen scraps (Cabbage, brussels sprout peelings, carrot tops etc. etc), so that gave them a much healthier diet, hence they didn't get the illnesses that they get these days and of course they weren't bred like they are these days, fancy breeds were not so common and the inbreeding didn't happen anything like it does now.

I liken it to children in a way, children years ago didn't have junk food and were much healthier, they didn't have half the problems that they do these days, obesity was a scarcely used word because people ate a much better diet, everything was freshly prepared, I think it was like that for animals too.

I firmly believe that many of the problems that we see with bunnies these days are down to breeding, I have no end of bunnies that require regular dentals, I also have some that I have to cut their nails fours times more than some of our other bunnies and yet they all go out each day for exercise, most of our bunnies have 12 hours out in the garden every day and enjoy digging and running around

Just an example, Bailey, the little boy that came in the other night with the horrendous teeth fathered a litter of 9 that were born 8 days ago I bet all those babies will have dental problems

thanks very much - that is really helpful as I really didnt think it was down to breeding but now that you explain it it makes sense.

I must admit I worried myself as I have never had to cut any of my rabbits nails and it seems like something I should be doing but each time I check them they are fine.

So to summarise then, very long teeth and nails are more common now due to:

Genetics - Inbreeding and incorrect breeding of aggravated traits
Eating not enough hay
Eating mainly small pellets and/or muesli which is of course soft, and little

So it is very much a modern phenomena. It is the buying of the easy food, rather than what is on hand at the farm or greengrocer, the buying of the cute funny looking rabbit from unreputable breeders etc.

Have I pretty much got it right?