Bonding not going well! Advise please! UD: WE HAVE GROOMING!

Ok so I took Miffy and buttons to my friends today to try put them together, in total neutral territory! All was well while there, not a single bit of aggression, humping or fur pulling it was basically textbook! Got them home and put them out in the lounge with their newly cleaned cage and all was good, hoping around together and ate dinner without a problem! Then an hour or so later Miffy started humping buttons and a massive fight broke out! I jumped in and grabbed buttons purely because he was the first one I managed to grab from the ball of fur flying! Checked him over while the bf checked Miffy over and neither injured so decided to put them back together, they are going to have to establish who is boss eventually, but they are now just sat opposite ends of the cage occasionally lunging forwards and then running back to their original spot!

What do I do next?? I'm so scared they are going to injure themselves, or never get on!!

Were they actually interacting at your friends? Grooming themselves or each other? Flopping or laying together?

For now, I'd leave them be and see how they are. If either / both seem incredibly stressed I'd go back a step and into the side-by-side pens (but perhaps swap them into each others pens). But if either of them seems to relax a bit, I'd leave them be. You might be in for a long night though.

I assume you have them both insured? They *might* manage to cause injury, but I have seen more scraps where fur has flown than ones which have caused injury....

They were great at my friends! They were both sat next to each other grooming, sniffing each other, flopping and they curled up quite close and started falling asleep!

Buttons is now the one being aggressive and lunges if she even moves! So I think I'm going to have to split them tonight otherwise I'm not actually going to sleep with worry!

But what is my next step after having to go back a step? Do I try again tomorrow? Maybe in the bathroom? I've been swapping them over into each others cages for the past couple of weeks so they are more than used to each others smells!

I only have 3 month insurance for Miffy which came free when I got her from the RSPCA!

Oh and I think the main problem is that they won't groom each other! They both put their heads down for grooming but neither will give in and groom the other! Can anyone suggest how to encourage one to groom the other?

Bruce and Flo carried on like this for months. Eventually Bruce groomed Flo, but she did not reciprocate for a full 12 months!

I think that it is still early days, and that you may need to actually decamp to your friends for a weekend if they will have you. When you brought them home did you separate them? Also did you make any further moves to neutralise their home environment?

What I would do is take them back to a neutral place and keep them there for at least 24hours. Meanwhile move everything around at home and give it a good clean. Replace any toys and vinegar the litter trays. Bring them back in the same carrier then confine them to a small space organised in a way they are not used to again for at least 24 hours. If they cope with this expand it slightly give it 24 hours and expand again. Buttons is clearly very territorial and needs to learn to share.

Everything Cheryl said ^^^

You need to try to get them to bond to the point that the bond is stronger and more important than their desire to protect their territory, before moving them back into that territory. Also being away from home for a bit longer might make them less territorial about 'home'.

Jack and Layla actually had a relatively easy bond. They met and spent a little time at the rescue, travelled home nose to nose in separate carriers then had a couple of hours together in a very small (2' square or so) pen outside. Then they moved into a pen at the end of the living room, which is a room Jack had been in although his old pen was at the other end of the room. They were gradually allowed more free-range time, but were back in the pen at nights until eventually they were completely free range. They are a very lovey-dovey couple.

Despite all that, Humum came home from work one day a couple of months later to find there had obviously been an almighty fight and there was fur everywhere Layla should really have been bald considering how many huge clumps of fur were all over the lounge. Jack and Layla were fine, laying together like butter wouldn't melt. Humum knows that if she had witnessed that fight, she would have broken it up instantly. As she was not there, the two of them sorted out whatever needed sorting out (fortunately without injury) and are now best buddies.

Sadly the place I took them to is my friends work, which is a nursery! So camping out there is a no go! I also have nowhere else in our flat that I could move their caging unless it was be be tiny and not really abiding by any animal welfare acts!! Or infront of the radiator which would be mega hot for them!! The only neutral place I can think of in our flat is the bath tub, but I certainly can't keep them in that!

When I bought them home I bought them home in the same carrier together and were really happy all snuggled up! While I was out trying to bond them my boyfriend completely cleaned their caging and the lounge and put down brand new fleece etc! I just don't understand why they were fine for hours at home and then suddenly changed!?

Even a few hours of an apparently smooth bond is very early days and they still won't have properly sorted out who is dominant. You need to get past the stage where they are being a bit polite and nice to each other. Is there any local friend or family who could put up with the three of you for a weekend? It seems a suitable way to start a bond, you just need that starting bit of the process to be longer.....

rub the scent of something they like,
Like the smell of banana or something on the top of the head as they will smell it and start licking it this could start some grooming off

Right I'm about to head to the supermarket to get some white vinegar (I swear we had some but can't find it anywhere!) I'm assuming I dilute the white vinegar with water do I? If so by how much?

gonna give the bathroom a good clean and try them in there as its pretty neutral and once cleaned there shouldn't be any remaining scents around! And see how they go, if they seem ok we've got one spot in the bedroom I could move the cage to that neither have been on because we have boxes of stuff there etc, but it's only big enough to fit a cage about 3ft by 2ft! Do you recon this is big enough? I'm just so nervous about while me and my boyfriend are at work tomorrow!

Fiver I tried rubbing a bit of banana on her head but buttons wasn't falling for that idea, and I ended up having to clean her head with a damp cloth because it went all crusty!!

Someone said to e about putting a small smear of Vicks on each of their rumps to take away any scent, do you think this is worth a try?

Does anyone think a car ride before putting them in the bathroom is a good idea?

50 / 50 vinegar and water

No reason not to take them for a car ride first.

Personally, I'd be happy for them to be in a 3' x 2' cage for a night and a day to start with - less space might be better.

Good luck

Ok I just put them in the bath, and she tried humping buttons which didn't go down well, I diffused the situation with tussling a bag of fungreek crunchies, then he has been humping the hell out of her while she just sits there looking a little scared! I'm assuming this is a good sign right?

To a certain degree, you just need to let them get on with it and not interfere too soon. Even nipping and fur-pulling is acceptable, but obviously break it up if they go into a proper fight again.

It can be stressful, but you need to let them sort it out amongst themselves if possible.

Have you put a towel in the bottom of the bath for grip? If so, and you have to split them up, take the towel out before you pop them back. It's hard to scrap when your feet are sliding all over the place....

Yea I put the bath mat in the bottom for that reason although they have dug it away to the side now and are both curled up together off the mat!

Here is a video of them when buttons was trying to be the dominant one!


I just went to check on them and they were both kind of falling asleep facing each other, I took a picture but for some reason all my uploads on photobucket keep failing!

Looking at the earography I think that everything is still ok. If there was annoyance the ears would be right back. Buttons is doing quite a good job with the dominance thing. The thing about putting them in somewhere like the bath is that it makes them a little stressed and so brings them together.

I don't think vick's is a good idea and may be harmful but i'm no expert hun,
I had to giggle at the crusty head bit
have you tried sitting with them stroking them both then swapping hands and stroking them thus putting each others scent on the opposite one's rear back and head

Ok so I've just transferred them into their new cage and both now sat in their new (huge) litter tray munching hay! Although they do keep jumping in and sitting on each others heads so I can't help but keep singing 'sit on my face and tell me that you love me!!'

Please everyone keep those fingers toes and paws crossed that this works!!

to the song
fingers toes paws fins and painfully ears are crossed

They've both flopped!! That's got to be good right?

that's very good
keep an eye there will be a bit of humping and maybe a little chasing as they try to place dominance very well done to them both though

Well flopped bunny = relaxed bunny so I'd say yes, but I'm no expert!!

Sending Buttons and Miffy lots of bonding vibes. And to their worried mummy!!

Well they've both just sat washing next to each other, and had a drink a big stretch and are now back in the litter tray together! When they were in the bath buttons licked Miffy's ear a couple of times, I just need him to do that again and stop being so stubborn and I think they then will be fine!!

have you seen this, it would be very helpful to you I think
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T7qraiZ8g6M&list=PLF87C29473490DD01&index=8

FluffSlave wrote:Well flopped bunny = relaxed bunny so I'd say yes, but I'm no expert!!

Sending Buttons and Miffy lots of bonding vibes. And to their worried mummy!!

Thank you! I can't wait till my boyfriend gets home in a min to give me a hug! This has been so stressful!

lizzi_b wrote:

FluffSlave wrote:Well flopped bunny = relaxed bunny so I'd say yes, but I'm no expert!!

Sending Buttons and Miffy lots of bonding vibes. And to their worried mummy!!

Thank you! I can't wait till my boyfriend gets home in a min to give me a hug! This has been so stressful!

don't do like your song though