Junior is going to the vet tomorrow.

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Post by Thumper2001 on Mon Nov 04, 2019 5:00 pm

I’ll try keep this brief Embarassed

There have been a lot of changes here with Molly and Junior. It all started with him peeing all over the house. We treated him for various things, lots of vet visits. Many things ruled out. It was then concluded it was - basically - anxiety. Most probably triggered by the baby.  The recommended we get them out of the house because he started taking funny turns. So OH built them an amazing shed. Fully insulated with a flight of stairs, platform, windows etc.

Unfortunately the funny turns have continued. But the vet can’t help me because by the time I get him there, he’s fine! Even though when I phone I am told to admit him with respiratory distress!

Friday night was an eye opener. A horrific experience. And I learned 100% that these “funny turns” are him choking Crying or Very sad I had my fingers down his throat. I was doing the bunny Heimlich. Legit thought he had died in my arms at one point. Then 30 mins later, he is fine.

No sense in an emergency admission. I’ve held off until tomorrow so I can see a particular vet. Nobody else is getting near him.

I want them to take him in and see if he has something stuck in his throat. But he only chokes when he’s been spooked.

I need him fixed. Neither of us can go through that again Crying or Very sad
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Post by iiisecondcreep on Tue Nov 05, 2019 8:44 pm

Oh no thats awful, poor Junior and you Sad

How did you get on at the vet today?

Gayle
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Post by Thumper2001 on Tue Nov 05, 2019 9:09 pm

He’s an absolute mystery. There’s nothing in his throat.

But the vet did manage to squeeze a pee out of him waaay to easily so sending it away for analysis.

Now we wait Sad

Apparently EC can cause weakening of muscles and organs so Vet is wondering if it could be the answer.

It makes no sense that he only chokes sometimes ???
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Post by Thumper2001 on Tue Nov 05, 2019 9:09 pm

Too*
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Post by woodwench on Thu Nov 07, 2019 9:20 pm

Is it anxiety?
Are you in the RWAF? You could get a consult with Richard Saunders very easily.
If anxiety maybe you could get in touch with Dr Anne McBride. She worked wonders with Reboots behavioral issues and with her help I managed ... well WE achieved so much.
I hope you sort this Junior is almost like my own bun .... luv him.
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Post by Thumper2001 on Thu Nov 07, 2019 10:45 pm

He is a complete mystery, Woodwench Sad

He only chokes on hay!! Fine with everything else.

I admitted them both to the animal hospital at 2:45am on Wednesday morning after he had 3 further choking episodes between 22:30 and 01:30.
They all break my heart but the 3rd was particularly upsetting. I ran through and he was lying on his side squealing. He looked up at me and his face had “help me” written all over it Crying or Very sad

Yesterday morning he was sedated so they could put a camera down his throat, X-ray and of course check teeth. They found nothing. I was heartbroken as I hoped they’d find something simple, like overgrown teeth or something stuck in his throat.

They gave me options of:
referral to **** Vet in Edinburgh - he’d never cope with the drive
Take him home but keep him off hay - which means separating them forever
Put him to sleep - A lot of people have been shocked at this but none of these people have witnessed how distressing it is for him.

So I’ve gone with option 2 but now he’s been home 24hrs I’m not sure just how practical or fair it is on him. He’s always been such a huge hay eater, it’s a massive adjustment for him.

For now we await blood and urine result from the lab. I have also been contacted by a lovely guy on a fb rabbit group who has a vet with a special interest in rabbits. Said vet had offered to look over his file so that was sent to him this aft.

Richard Saunders and Anne MacBride have both crossed my mind. I’m not a member of the RWAF unfortunately but Junior is insured so I still have the option of paying for specialist intervention. It just all has to be done remotely Sad
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Post by iiisecondcreep on Fri Nov 08, 2019 9:05 pm

Thumper2001 wrote:
They gave me options of:
referral to **** Vet in Edinburgh - he’d never cope with the drive
Take him home but keep him off hay - which means separating them forever
Put him to sleep - A lot of people have been shocked at this but none of these people have witnessed how distressing it is for him.

So I’ve gone with option 2 but now he’s been home 24hrs I’m not sure just how practical or fair it is on him. He’s always been such a huge hay eater, it’s a massive adjustment for him.

Could you try him on chopped hay? Or compressed hay blocks?
Eg: http://halleysfeeds.co.uk/ocart_halleysfeeds/index.php?route=product/category&path=78
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Post by woodwench on Fri Nov 08, 2019 9:16 pm

Thumper. Join the RWAF. Get a referral. I can ask Anne McBride over the weekend about choking and anxiety but you need to be in RWAF to get a referral to R.S..
Has he been X-rayed or had an ultrasound? I asked because I wonder if there is something causing his esophagus and/or stomach to expand properly when eating.  Henry didn't actually choke but his esophagus and stomach expansion was restricted by his heart being enlarged and Reboot had that awful mass in his abdomen that pushed his innards up and made it impossible for him to fill his stomach properly.
I hope you have good news soon. In the mean time let him Molly get together for lovey-play times without hay being there. They can still have each other but on a restricted basis and that's better than not at all.
Do keep us up dated, I'm not here everyday because I'm not well enough but I want to know how he is.
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Post by gemma997 on Sun Nov 10, 2019 2:35 pm

Oh thumper, I know how destressing seen your bun choke is and I can not imagine having to go through it over and over again.

How far away are you from edinburgh?

Hopefully the other vet can come up with something that can help or a cause of why it happening. .

Xxx
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Post by woodwench on Sun Nov 10, 2019 10:32 pm

Have asked Anne McBride and she doubts it is anxiety/stress, but suggests you keep a detailed diary. Note down everything from food make type and supplier to what is happening or happened around him. Write down your cleaning and any change of product any interactions with him ... virtually everything you can,
Fingers crossed for you and Junior.
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Post by Thumper2001 on Sun Nov 10, 2019 10:49 pm

iiisecondcreep wrote:
Thumper2001 wrote:
They gave me options of:
referral to **** Vet in Edinburgh - he’d never cope with the drive
Take him home but keep him off hay - which means separating them forever
Put him to sleep - A lot of people have been shocked at this but none of these people have witnessed how distressing it is for him.

So I’ve gone with option 2 but now he’s been home 24hrs I’m not sure just how practical or fair it is on him. He’s always been such a huge hay eater, it’s a massive adjustment for him.

Could you try him on chopped hay? Or compressed hay blocks?
Eg: http://halleysfeeds.co.uk/ocart_halleysfeeds/index.php?route=product/category&path=78
Thank you for this. Over the course of the weekend I have put my big girl pants on and have been feeding him cheap finer chopper hay. I think it’s from B&M. I’ve supervised him at all times tho.

I’ve even seen him sneak some of the usual hay from molly’s side and he’s been absolutely fine.

It’s mind blowing!!
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Post by Thumper2001 on Sun Nov 10, 2019 10:52 pm

woodwench wrote:Thumper. Join the RWAF. Get a referral. I can ask Anne McBride over the weekend about choking and anxiety but you need to be in RWAF to get a referral to R.S..
Has he been X-rayed or had an ultrasound? I asked because I wonder if there is something causing his esophagus and/or stomach to expand properly when eating.  Henry didn't actually choke but his esophagus and stomach expansion was restricted by his heart being enlarged and Reboot had that awful mass in his abdomen that pushed his innards up and made it impossible for him to fill his stomach properly.
I hope you have good news soon. In the mean time let him Molly get together for lovey-play times without hay being there. They can still have each other but on a restricted basis and that's better than not at all.
Do keep us up dated, I'm not here everyday because I'm not well enough but I want to know how he is.
He has had an X-ray and an endoscopy and nothing to be seen Sad

Thank you for your thoughts, I am open to all and any suggestions.

Molly and Junior are side by side and I let them out together. I also let her into his half. Means she’s also without hay for a few hours but I’m sure she’ll be fine!
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Post by Thumper2001 on Sun Nov 10, 2019 10:56 pm

gemma997 wrote:Oh thumper, I know how destressing seen your bun choke is and I can not imagine having to go through it over and over again.

How far away are you from edinburgh?

Hopefully the other vet can come up with something that can help or a cause of why it happening. .

Xxx
Over the weekend I have learned he is having an oesophageal choke, rather than a full windpipe choke. This means the choke itself will not suffocate him but the big risk for him (aside from the scare itself!) is that he floods out of his mouth during it. If he were to breathe that in Crying or Very sad

I’m about 3hrs away and that’s a good day. You should see the state of him after we get to the emergency vet and that’s only 45 mins away!

Raging at my vets. The specialist emailed me this morning and said my vets never sent him his file Mad They’ll be getting a fire lit under their arses tomorrow morning!!
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Post by Thumper2001 on Sun Nov 10, 2019 11:01 pm

woodwench wrote:Have asked Anne McBride and she doubts it is anxiety/stress, but suggests you keep a detailed diary. Note down everything from food make type and supplier to what is happening or happened around him. Write down your cleaning and any change of product any interactions with him ... virtually everything you can,
Fingers crossed for you and Junior.
Woodwench, I very much appreciate you doing this for us. Thank you so very much. I will take her advice on board. I’m a dab hand at diary keeping being a migraine sufferer Laughing

My vets initially thought it was behavioural when it was just the weeing and we never realised he was choking. Did I even mention the weeing? I’m losing my mind! In the days leading up to the chokes, he wees everywhere!! Then he chokes, and it stops. It’s like a build up to it. And nobody can figure out why Sad


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Post by Thumper2001 on Sun Nov 10, 2019 11:12 pm

I honestly do wonder myself if this is all down to his nervous disposition. I wonder if he is swallowing whatever is in his mouth when he is spooked. Regardless of how well chewed it is.

All but 3 times I have caught it at the onset. Why would he wait for me to be there to choke?

I definitely can’t think what could have spooked him the first time it happened. We were all in bed. I definitely did spook him last Friday, unfortunately Sad But I don’t know what could have set him off on Tuesday. I was sitting on the sofa feeding the baby, son #1 was in bed.

I’m just thinking out loud here Hmmm
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Post by woodwench on Mon Nov 11, 2019 3:02 pm

Is it a sphincter muscle spasm? Sure I've read an article about this somewhere. Sorry I can't look it up for you but I'm not well enough. I can't manage to read anything these days it brings on the most horrendous symptoms.
Like poor Junior I'm baffling the medics.
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Post by Thumper2001 on Sat Nov 16, 2019 9:23 pm

We are STILL waiting for the results from the lab Rolling Eyes so no further forward with why it happened. But when the vet calls I am going to put all the suggestions forward, thank you.

I moved them both back out to their shed yesterday morning because they have been miserable is the house, separated Sad

So it was decision time as to what to do in the long term. My options were:
1. Keep them divided and miserable
2. Put them both out together with hay and take our chances with the choking
3. Put them out together but only give them hay when I’m around
4. Put him to sleep to avoid any further distress.

Rightly or wrongly, I’ve gone with option 3. Which I understand won’t sit well with many people but I’ve got to do what is right for them. Having a young baby, I am at home a lot and can check on them frequently so they probably have hay more than people think. But unfortunately this means they are left without any overnight Hmmm We just have to see how we get on. I make sure they have had a good fill of it before I go to bed, and I’m out there late at night locking the hay hutch and again early in the morning opening it up.

The difference in their moods was almost instant. I put them out and within minutes his eyes were brighter, his ears were right up and molly was shooting around the shed, up and down the stairs.

I haven’t seen any tiny poops since I put them back out so I think they must be getting enough hay.

I feel like I have to justify my decision to people (and this is no reflection on you guys) but I know I’m doing what is right for my 2 bunnies, and myself. I can actually sleep again, knowing he’s not going to choke to death when I’m not around.
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Post by woodwench on Sun Nov 17, 2019 2:46 am

You don't have to justify to me. It's what I would have done. They are both happy with option 3 and that goes along way to finding a cure ... if maybe not the actual cause of the trouble. Have you tried, or discussed with the vet trying hay cakes? And what about Fibafirst sticks?
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Post by Thumper2001 on Mon Nov 18, 2019 3:09 pm

Thank you, Woodwench. That means a lot.

Junior has been eating hay aplenty so I haven’t actually had to think about hay cakes etc. It’s kind of left at my discretion what I feed them, but we do have fibafirst Smile

Blood results came back an hour ago. Nothing. Definitely negative for EC.
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Post by gemma997 on Thu Nov 21, 2019 9:15 pm

Same as what woodwench said, you don't have to justify what you do with your buns to anyone.
You know them best so you know what suits them, what's the point of making them miserable if you have an alternative which makes them happy and loved Hugs Hugs

Good about the EC xxx
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Post by Thumper2001 on Sat Nov 23, 2019 10:09 pm

Thank you, Gemma Hugs
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Post by gemma997 on Thu Nov 28, 2019 5:35 pm

How is he getting on? Xxx
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Post by Thumper2001 on Thu Nov 28, 2019 9:08 pm

We heard back from the vet school in Edinburgh the other day. They have indicated a jaw issue, perhaps arthritis, as it’s only the hay he struggles with. Nothing showed up on the X-ray but he has always been a bit of pansy, bless him, so it wouldn’t surprise me if it isn’t sore enough to show up but is sore enough to cause him to panic and subsequently choke. He has always been a massive hay eater, his chops don’t stop, so wear and tear in that area also wouldn’t surprise me.
I picked up metacam from my vets yesterday and gave him the first dose this morning - so here’s hoping today is the first day of the rest of his life!!
I feel like we are building up to another choke because he’s peeing everywhere so the call couldn’t have been better timed. If the metacam stops the peeing, it will be a clear answer as far as I’m concerned.

I’m so hoping this is the end of it!!!!
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Post by woodwench on Fri Nov 29, 2019 1:58 am

Fingers crossed for him. He's such a lovely lad.
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Post by iiisecondcreep on Fri Nov 29, 2019 7:47 pm

Fingers crossed! Keep us posted Smile
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