EC & Kidney related problems UD 19/05/09

Some of you know that Thumper has been a bit of a problem for the last few months although I haven't posted much about it.

Yesterday we went back to the vet, and it appears that one kidney is probably defunct. Now I know that in humans the loss of one kidney does not necessarily cause problems, and the vet has said that rabbits can cope with one kidney even if it is only working at 50% of normal so that's a relief. He is improving, he doesn't seem to be in as much discomfort, he is much more lively and he's putting on weight so we think his system is stabilising. (thank goodness)

However, we know that Thumper had EC in the past, and I know that can cause kidney related issues, but does this mean that the other is likely to pack up as well? Does anyone have any experience of kidney issues in rabbits?

Has he had blood tests and abdominal Ultrasound to get the diagnosis ?

If the Kidney damage is EC related then it is possible that both kidneys will be effected. But there are other causes of Kidney Disease in Rabbits, not just EC.

Is your Bun on any medication now ?

Chronic Renal failure is usually managed with dietary modification- high water content fresh food, restrict calcium and phosphate intake.

Medications may include ACE inhibitors (eg Fortekor) to lower the blood pressure thus reducing the filtrating workload of the kidneys.
Anabolic steroids act as an appetite stimulant, reduce uraemia (accumulation of nitrous waste products in the blood) and may help with the retention of electrolytes and reduce the rate of muscle wastage.
Multivitamin injections may also be helpful.
Antibiotics may be needed if there is any secondary bacterial infection.

He's still on metacam, and marbocyl at the moment and he had B12 yesterday and a both steroid and B12 last week. The vet said she'd give him another steroid injection when I take him back.

He's had blood tests and they tried the ultrasound but it was inconclusive(sp?) as they couldn't get a clear image

I am assuming you mean an anabolic steroid not a corticosteroid?

If he is in chronic renal failure then Metacam needs to be used with caution. A lower dose than may normally be prescribed is usually suggested .An opiate may be a preferable anaglesic if pain is an issue.
Perhaps you could discuss this with your Vet ?

Sorry Lynne, no experience to offer, but I'm sure you're not alone. Hugs to Thumper, I hope Paula can get to the bottom of it.

Has Thumper had blood tests to determine whether it is his kidney or kidneys Lynne and what symptoms has he been displaying so far...

Sooz wrote:Has Thumper had blood tests to determine whether it is his kidney or kidneys Lynne and what symptoms has he been displaying so far...

Hi Sooz,

He has had blood tests and like the ultrasound, it was inconclusive! It indicated high white cell which suggested infection, but the kidney levels were ok the kidney area was extremely tender and Paula could feel a lump over that area too. So the initial thought was it was an abcess. Over the following weeks the area has remained tender and the swelling getting smaller, but so has the kidney. We are now at the stage where Paula cannot find the right kidney on examination at all, but she can freely examine him without pain. He has had anabolic steroids, depocillin although that has been changed to marbocyl. He has had vit b12 and is also on a reduced level of metacam 0.2

As far as symptoms, he has been anorexic, not full stasis but not eating a great deal, weight loss, urinary incontinence and lethargy. He is now much brighter, eating better and gaining weight again. This is since the steroid and vit 12. He's having another steroid when I take him back and probably another b12. Paula thinks that he has kidney damage as a result of the EC and whilst I know he is in no immediate danger, I am concerned about any possible long term effects and need some reassurance that I am just over reacting or is there something I can do to prevent further symptoms.

Hope this makes sense

thumpersmum wrote:

Sooz wrote:Has Thumper had blood tests to determine whether it is his kidney or kidneys Lynne and what symptoms has he been displaying so far...

Hi Sooz,

He has had blood tests and like the ultrasound, it was inconclusive! It indicated high white cell which suggested infection, but the kidney levels were ok the kidney area was extremely tender and Paula could feel a lump over that area too. So the initial thought was it was an abcess. Over the following weeks the area has remained tender and the swelling getting smaller, but so has the kidney. We are now at the stage where Paula cannot find the right kidney on examination at all, but she can freely examine him without pain. He has had anabolic steroids, depocillin although that has been changed to marbocyl. He has had vit b12 and is also on a reduced level of metacam 0.2

As far as symptoms, he has been anorexic, not full stasis but not eating a great deal, weight loss, urinary incontinence and lethargy. He is now much brighter, eating better and gaining weight again. This is since the steroid and vit 12. He's having another steroid when I take him back and probably another b12. Paula thinks that he has kidney damage as a result of the EC and whilst I know he is in no immediate danger, I am concerned about any possible long term effects and need some reassurance that I am just over reacting or is there something I can do to prevent further symptoms.

Hope this makes sense

I assume then that Thumper tested positive for EC during a titre at some point in the past and has therefore been treated with Panacur, do you know how long ago this was and how long for...also, with his incontinence has he also been urinating and drinking more that usual?

I've found this article online which may be of use to you as it explains the causes, effects, treatment and prognosis for rabbits suffering with kidney conditions: House Rabbit Network: Renal Failure if you have any questions it dosn't answer I can try to help but this isn't really one of my area's of expertise.

Thanks Sooz,

I'm sorry I don't know what a titre is. Is that the blood test that they can do to check for EC? If so, no he hasn't had it done. Thumper had what we believe to be EC about a month after we had him, head tilt, rolling, the works. He's never had any tests as the vet we were with then felt it not worth doing. He ruled out an ear infection as being unlikely although he did give us antibiotics but only told us to give a 9 day course of panacur, (but we didn't know any better then ).

When we changed vets we gave them both a 6 week panacur treatment, plus a good full cleanout/disinfection of the hutch every week. Paula feels from the description of what happened at the time, the fact that he also has eye damage consistent with the effects of EC that this is the most probable explanation. She ruled out doing a blood test as unless he proved negative it wouldn't prove that he had had it( I think that was it anyway)

Thanks for the link, I'm going off to have a read now

The symptoms do sound as though EC is a very likely candidate. The titre test is one way of checking for EC (the other being through a feacal sample) but it isn't totally conclusive because what it actually tests is antibodies to EC rather than for EC itself.

Rabbits who have been exposed to EC will show antibodies in the blood test but the only way to try and get a conclusive result is to retake the titre over a period of time and ascertain if the antibody count rises, falls or remains static...this should give an inidcation of if the infection is current or past. It's time consuming, expensive and often inconclusive which is why many vets don't bother with it.

I hope the link proves helpful.

Sooz wrote:The symptoms do sound as though EC is a very likely candidate. The titre test is one way of checking for EC (the other being through a feacal sample) but it isn't totally conclusive because what it actually tests is antibodies to EC rather than for EC itself.

Rabbits who have been exposed to EC will show antibodies in the blood test but the only way to try and get a conclusive result is to retake the titre over a period of time and ascertain if the antibody count rises, falls or remains static...this should give an inidcation of if the infection is current or past. It's time consuming, expensive and often inconclusive which is why many vets don't bother with it.

I hope the link proves helpful.

Thanks Sooz,

Interesting article. It talks about chronic renal; failure which I assume means both are affected, but we think with Thumper that only one is affected. Assuming that rabbits are like humans and that they can cope with only one kidney hopefully Thumper will be ok. I'll talk to Paula about monitoring him when we go back.

One thing, several times Paula has tried to get a urine sample, but failed miserably as his bladder was empty. I've often wondered, how do you get a urine sample from a rabbit? I though it might be useful if he starts to deteriorate to take one with me, but I can't imagine how on earth you would do it?

Hi Lynne

When Fudge needed to take a urine sample to the vets we resorted to Katkor in his litter tray and a bit of trial and error! They are non-absorbant granuals...wtih Fudge I knew it was definately Fudge doing the piddling as he is a singleton...mmmmm......

You could always express his bladder

FudgesMummy wrote:Hi Lynne

When Fudge needed to take a urine sample to the vets we resorted to Katkor in his litter tray and a bit of trial and error! They are non-absorbant granuals...wtih Fudge I knew it was definately Fudge doing the piddling as he is a singleton...mmmmm......

This is what I was going to suggest, there are a few types of non-absorbant litter you can use which are made for situations like this. Some bunnies will also use their litter tray even if it has no litter in provided it is still in situ.

Vibes for Thumper Lynne, I hope this all helps the little guy

Sooz wrote:

FudgesMummy wrote:Hi Lynne

When Fudge needed to take a urine sample to the vets we resorted to Katkor in his litter tray and a bit of trial and error! They are non-absorbant granuals...wtih Fudge I knew it was definately Fudge doing the piddling as he is a singleton...mmmmm......

This is what I was going to suggest, there are a few types of non-absorbant litter you can use which are made for situations like this. Some bunnies will also use their litter tray even if it has no litter in provided it is still in situ.

Thanks FudgesMummy, thanks Sooz. Sorry for more questions
Where do I get the non absorbant granules, are these they from the vet?
They are litter trained so I might try the empty litter tray, I just need to make sure I can watch so I can identify when it's Thumper rather than Ruby.

Snowy wrote:You could always express his bladder

Not sure about that one Theo!!! I think I'll try the other options first

Jay wrote:Vibes for Thumper Lynne, I hope this all helps the little guy

Thanks Jay, I appreciate all the advice from everyone it is very useful thanks, I'm sure we'll get there in the end.

What an interesting thread and some very good information, that is an excellent article, I know he is getting the very best care possible and I hope Thumper continues to improve

Thanks for everyone's replies to this thread. I thought I'd give you an update after our vet visit today

I am really happy to say that I've got my old Thumper back! In the last week he has really perked up, to the point of escaping out of the run and turning into destruct-o-bun!!!!!! (that's another story for another thread I think) Needless to say Paula is very pleased with him, and with his continued improvement

He's had another steroid and B12 injection, and I've got to carry on with the antibiotics for another couple of weeks, but can drop the metacam. He does not have any pain and is putting weight on. In fact he is now at his heaviest ever.

He has definitely lost the one kidney, so we're just going to monitor him now and Paula is happy to leave him in my care and I only need to take him back if there are any new developments.

We don't know what the future holds for him because of the possible EC connections, but we're hopeful that for now everything is fine, and with luck will remain that way

pleased that Thumper is feeling alot better and hopes he stays and continues to be a destruct-0-bun

great news!

That has made my day I'm so pleased for you all, well done Thumper !

way to go!!!

Fantastic news x x x