Diet & Caecotrophs

Just throwing this out there, see what you guys think...

Since Frances' H-B's talk at the RWAF conference last year, there's been a few things whirring around my head that I've given some consideration to.
Two of her statements that I've thinking about .. 'Caecotrophs are not stools, they are food' and 'if they eat all this nutritious food, is there any point to caecotrophs?'

Having shown us photos of rabbits living in Spain, where they originate from, and seeing the very basic scrub that they live and survive on, and having discussed it with Anne, I've come to realise that rabbits are supreme convertors of rubbish food, and can survive on barely nothing of any inward nutritional value, because the process of caecotrophy is absolutely amazing, and the buns convert that rubbish food into all the nutrients it needs.

It's also true that rabbits do enjoy a variety of foods, like us. also like us, they can survive on absolute crud Unlike the majority of us however, they can live a full long life on absolute crud !

So, when we talk about providing blanced, nutrional diets for rabbits, is this just not a case of anthropomorphism? When we say that they should have greens, good pellets etc, is this true? They do indeed enjoy these foods, but are they actually contributing to the health and well being of the rabbit?

The ideal diet for rabbits surely has to be the most basic one - Grass, a variety of wild leaves, fruit twigs.

As rabbits can do amazing things with these foods, are we running the risk over over feeding nutrients? If the nutritional and vitamin intake is too high, when mixed with the nutritional and vitamin values of the output caecotrophs, could this be harmful?

Would value you thoughts

The last month or so, I've been giving Florence hardly any veggies. She gets herbs very occassionally, not as much as she did, and the veg I do give her is hard stuff (small bit of carrot/celery), with the exception of cucumber which is her main love.

The reason I've done this, is to make her eat as much hay, readi-grass, dried herbs and fresh grass/dandelions as she can. I've done it mainly because I am so paranois about her having teeth problems (as she's a small lop), and partly because it is what wild bunnies are designed for (well ok not dried herbs!). She is as healthy as ever, and as lively as ever. I don't think she's lost weight, and she doesn't seem to be suffering for it.

When I dropped her off at the rescue yesterday there was a bowl of veggies for her, a bowl of readi-grass and straw and hay in her cage. She totally ignored the veggies and went straight for the other bits. Which to me shows that she isn't missing them, or she'd have been more interested. The rescue lady commented on it too!

I'd be interested in everyone elses thoughts too. She does still get pellets in the morning, but not many (unless her Daddy feeds her ) but she always has lots of hay, sometimes more than one type depending how organised I am!

Its an interested subject Jay.

I have changed my buns diet in the last 6 months or so. The biggest change is a move away from veg and towards herbs. Flo seems to love herbs so it was aimed at her really. I have also started feeding a greater variety of hays. So they went from getting just hay and readigrass to having meadow hay (soon to be Ings) timothy hay, herbage (currently on offer in PAH) and dried herbs and leaves etc. As well as the small amounts of pellets and now some of the long fibre type supreme food. The herbs go fast and the specific types of hay are always eaten everyday and generally poos are looking much happier. But then there was that dental hiccup Bruce had arounf christmas new year which I still can't square in my head.

I would add in favour of our way of feeding buns that domestic buns have a much longer life than their wild counterparts and I am not sure how that can be reflected in the wild studies. I have been giving Bruce a small amount of Glucosamine supplement in the form of johnsons 4joints liquid and he has shown a real extra bounce in his step. In in the wild if he lived long enough to get a little bit of arthritis how would his diet help him? I think if we keep our animals in a way that extends their natural life span we also have a duty to add in the extras which can help with the resulting ailments. This may mean we always have to feed some extra nutrients not found in the wild diet and that we have to do this from a young age.

Thanks for your responses
I agree with both of you about cutting back on veg, and introducing more herbs/leaves , and a varity of hays. I think it's amazing that Florence went for the hay etc

I grabbed some time with Anne this aft. and put all this to her.

I can't quote verbatum, but this is what I gleamed.

Rabbits do need a varirty of certian nutrients to support the caecum finction in its production of food parcels. These are more often than not trace elements, and their source is not needed in abundance.

Rabbits that live on a hay only diet would become nutritionally deplete.

Reason: The meadow is the ideal feeding ground for rabbits. If you take a square metre of meadow, in any season, you will find many different plant, weed, herb, bramble and grass varieties. Rabbits can cover the space of 7 football fields grazing, in a day, so this meadow environmet, certianly in the warmer months, provides an abundance of variety.

If a rabbit only had access to a hayfiled, it would become nutritionally deplete, this is when they start gnawing the bark from trees, which is understood to be a slightly desperate act.

Wild rabbits gain a complete diet in a meadow, and can, and do surive as long a life as domestic buns, provided they are living in a place that has minimal risk of predators. Most wild buns live 2 -3 years before being killed.

In a predator free environment, bucks can live 8-10 years, does are likely to die of cancer.

Veg and fruit are exceptional to the diet, but they do eat scrub bush fruit, like blackberries, and leaves.

As an aside, you're absolutely right about the variety of hay Cheryl. When we buy bags of hay, it all come from one field, mono-hay. This is unnatural to the rabbit, who expects to be able to eat a variety of hays and grasses, for fibrous and nutritional reasons.

So the answer is...up to the owner

I see it as..veg as reduced part of the diet, more than a mainstay, although it can just as regular, but smaller amounts.

Increase herbs- they are very good for teeth erosin, hydration, and fibre, esp stringy stalks like Parsley.

Leave your lawn to grow free - the buns will love it enough to mow it for you!

If you haven't a garden, but can go to a park or common, reserve, sea side, whatever, where you can get grasses, pick and give them some daily if poss. Include leaves. If you have access to a meadow, go and pick it!

Rabbits will leave what they don't want to eat, they're selective feeders.

Always keep pellets as a supplement, and if your bun does have access to a meadow, or meadow food, then there will be no need for pellets.

This is really interesting.

Daisy is thriving recently - and I didnt know if it was because Ive recently started mixing his hay up - A few weeks ago I introduced Oat hay in with his meadow hay and now in the last week Ings hay into the mix too. I wonder if his glossy coat and boundless energy has something to do with this??

The guys today "mowed" the grass in my garden and loved it. They then went over to the herb pots and helped themselves, then they nibbled some hay, then back to the grass. They were loving it.

I've said on HH before that Lil Loll is picky! Most of the things you guys give your buns and said buns go gaga over, he will merely sniff and stamp at. He likes his daily burgess but goes more for the 3 or 4 types of hay on offer. He eats spring greens in moderation (I give small amouts, he eats half). He will eat the odd sprig of parsley, when the mood takes him. He likes a disc of carrot a day and the odd length of apple paring. In season he will eat 2 types of fresh grass and dandelion leaves. But he will not touch any thing else.

He never as a dirty bum, I've only seen 2 uneaten caecotrophs in 3 yrs. He had an upset tum last Nov but that's all he's ever ailed and he's almost 6 now.

I think we feed lots of things that aren't needed to make ourselves feel good about being caring owners.... like giving dogs/cats treats. I used to feel Loll was missing out by being picky but I think in fact he is following his instinct to eat healthily.

This is a very informative thread. I'd love to take Thumper out on a harness, but so many people put chemicals of one sort or another on their lawns.

[quote="Jay"]I think it's amazing that Florence went for the hay etc [quote]

I was so embarassed!! They'd done a lovely veggie salad for her with all different things and she just sniffed it and went for the other stuff. But the rescue lady just said "aww what a good girl", and I explained why it probably was and she was impressed. So that made me feel a bit better. I imagine they get bunnies in who have never seen hay, so to get one to seek it out was probably a but unusual. But then there is nothing normal about Florence!!

The conversation with Anne must have been really interesting. I'm fascinated with bits like this.

This is really, really interesting.
My pair have always been excited about hay, when the hay box comes out they dive in (literally). Recently I've cut back on the spring greens, simply because they weren't too bothered about them. But this has then led me to increase their herb intake.
I plan on cutting back on veg in the summer particularly so they can have a vast range of natures goodies!
I have been considering cutting back kale in general. They only get a small amount and not every day (knowing the calcium intake) anyway.
Since cutting back the spring greens there have been no left over C's

This is really interesting. When we tak about herbs, is it fresh herbs, e.g. parsely straight from the garden, or dried herbs?

When I say I feed my two veggies mainly I feed them parsely with occasional corriander. Otherwise they just get hay.

Hmmmm

This is really interesting. Id love to cut out pellets/veg, but im just too scared to. Not only that, but im just not organised enough to source the sheer variety of food and forage that they would need to remain healthy.

It makes me feel guilty though, because its just a cop out on my part. I know i feed too much veg, and have recently cut down, their poos are lightening right up and theyre eating more hay, which is great, but im just too scared to take that step.

The step to replace veg with herbs is not only good for the buns but good for your pocket. I have spent £11 on herb seed today - parsley, coriander, fennel (2 types) chervil, basil and rocket. Hopefully they will provide enough herbs to keep me going all through the summer and autumn. In addition I have 2 huge french tarragon plants, rosemary, thyme, winter savory, sage, mint, oregano and chamomile plants all wrapped up in fleece and where necessary silver bubble wrap insulation. With a bitof feeding the will last a long time. I will be able to plant some plants out in the borders to encourage the buns to leave the flowers alone so I won't even need to pick some of them.

You would be able to do something similar. You could put a shelf up higher in the shed and fill it with pots of herbs or grow lots out in pots in the yard. In particular the mint works well here. It grows in deep shade and flo comes and sits on it whilst she is talking to the lop next door and fertilises the plant at the same time. Or you could grow in gro-bags. Certainly any outlay is more than made back in savings on veg. And herbs are not without nutrition - parsley in particular is full of allsorts of good things. If you plants get too big you can always trim them back and dry the trimmings. And you can buy plantain seeds to grow in pots as well.

cheryl'n'bruce'flo wrote:The step to replace veg with herbs is not only good for the buns but good for your pocket. I have spent £11 on herb seed today - parsley, coriander, fennel (2 types) chervil, basil and rocket. Hopefully they will provide enough herbs to keep me going all through the summer and autumn. In addition I have 2 huge french tarragon plants, rosemary, thyme, winter savory, sage, mint, oregano and chamomile plants all wrapped up in fleece and where necessary silver bubble wrap insulation. With a bitof feeding the will last a long time. I will be able to plant some plants out in the borders to encourage the buns to leave the flowers alone so I won't even need to pick some of them.

You would be able to do something similar. You could put a shelf up higher in the shed and fill it with pots of herbs or grow lots out in pots in the yard. In particular the mint works well here. It grows in deep shade and flo comes and sits on it whilst she is talking to the lop next door and fertilises the plant at the same time. Or you could grow in gro-bags. Certainly any outlay is more than made back in savings on veg. And herbs are not without nutrition - parsley in particular is full of allsorts of good things. If you plants get too big you can always trim them back and dry the trimmings. And you can buy plantain seeds to grow in pots as well.

I know i could save myself a lot of money, but last year i tried growing a few herbs from seed and they didnt do very well at all. My mint did well, infact its still out there now, looking a bit scabby and deshevilled but i think it will come back in spring/summer. I was just lucky with that one, anything i grow usually dies, i cant help it.

Mint, lavender, rosemary and sage are all tough and will survive most things. If you have had problems with seed then get some young plants. Just remember to water them. Basil in particular is hard to get going from seed. But parsley and chervil are quite easy just sprinkle them on the earth and rough up the area to mix them in a bit. Water on dry days and after a couple of weeks they will come. Lemon balm is another one that is easy to grow - it is a member of the mint family so also long lived.

cheryl'n'bruce'flo wrote:Mint, lavender, rosemary and sage are all tough and will survive most things. If you have had problems with seed then get some young plants. Just remember to water them. Basil in particular is hard to get going from seed. But parsley and chervil are quite easy just sprinkle them on the earth and rough up the area to mix them in a bit. Water on dry days and after a couple of weeks they will come. Lemon balm is another one that is easy to grow - it is a member of the mint family so also long lived.

I have a lemonbalm plant, its not completely dead, but i cant remember the last time i watered it When it warms up outide a little, ill probably get the wall baskets and planters full of herbs again and im sure the lemon balm will come back in spring. Its fine for me in summer, but i hate the garden in winter. I have started feeding more herbs though and cut back on the veg, but i buy them from the supermarket instead

cheryl'n'bruce'flo wrote:Mint, lavender, rosemary and sage are all tough and will survive most things.

Thanks for this info. I'm wanting to grow some herbs in pots to grow outside. We have had incredibly nice weather more like the end of March than the middle of Winter. I just looked at the thermometer. It's 66F outside! Usual highs her this time of year average upper 30's! The daffodils are greening up and some of the smaller bulbs are blooming in spite of the drought.