Willow gave me a scare last night! UD: Vets tomorrow

Last night I was playing around with Wills and we were doing our usual game - she just hops over a little stick then crawls under it in the opposite direction and gets a treat for it. I did not overwork her and she is a healthy weight, yet out of the blue she just took herself off to the floor and collapsed. Then she lay there panting and quite unresponsive. After a 5 minute lie down she was back to herself, hopping around, eating, drinking...

I'm getting quite worried that there may be something wrong with her heart/lungs? First the reaction under GA and now this. It seems that whenever she is under any pressure she goes like this. I know larger rabbits can be more prone to problems like this. Is there anyway I can find out more about if she does have a problem? The vet told me she carries a respiratory condition, Pastuerella I assume although she didn't say that.

Of course, I will NOT be jumping her again or placing her under any strain. She is a healthy young girl who eats very well and binkys and bunny 500's everywhere, but this has got me worried.

I would suggest that you phone your vet and find out exactly what the underlying problem is so you can work out what is going on. I am also wondering what you mean by collapsed. Some buns take themselves off and pretty much throw themselves on the floor when they are very happy. Bruce does this. He throws himself on his side and then licks the floor whether that be grass or lino or carpet then he just goes still for a while before getting back up and on with what he was doing. But if it is not that sort of collapse then I think it is really important to know what the underlying illness is. The most common are pasturella and e.c. but the reasons for collapse would be very different between the 2 illnesses. Pasturella could be causing some sort of respiratory stress causing Willow to need to rest. But if it is E.C. then it could be a mini stroke. In either case it does not mean that Willow in imminent danger necessarily but you need to know what you can do to make conditions best for her. It could be that you need to think about having a humidifier or dehumidifier in her room when she is symptomatic or that you need to be ready with a ice bottle to cool her down or something simple like that. It may well be worth you getting a stethescope so you can monitor her heart rate. They are fairly cheap via places like amazon. You don't need to count necessarily but just get a feel for what her normal heartbeat is and what she is like during one of these collapses. But start with talking to your vet.

i agree i would phone your vet and explain what is happening,
i know it's differnt but i watched a vet show on tv the other day and a dog would run for about a mile then just flag out on the floor and they checked it for some disease to some muscle's as this could cause them symptom's as i say probably not the same but worth having willow checked over x

I think collapsed was the wrong terminology. She did her usual "happy roll", onto her side like you described, and then flopped out. What worried me was her heavy breathing afterwards.

From what I've read I think you're right, it sounds as though the Pasturella (I will find out from my vet next time I'm there if this is for sure what it is, although I am 100% convinced it is) means that when she puts her respiratory system under strain e.g. jumping and heavier exercise, she is forced to rest, but it does not effect her in day-to-day life.

On the day we collected her after her funny episode under GA, the vet did tell me that the condition may make things harder for her when she is asking more of her respiratory system. I feel a fool for not realising that asking her to jump and crawl would be considered hard exercise. We won't be doing it again, that's for sure. I will speak to my vet when I'm next up there, as she is due her booster shortly anyway. I'm not sure what I can find out other than confirming that the specific condition she carries IS Pasturella. I'm almost 100% convinced it was her condition that caused this episode, and you guys pointing out that this could be the reason it happened is comforting, so feeling a lot less worried now it's all making sense!

FluffSlave wrote:I think collapsed was the wrong terminology. She did her usual "happy roll", onto her side like you described, and then flopped out. What worried me was her heavy breathing afterwards.

From what I've read I think you're right, it sounds as though the Pasturella (I will find out from my vet next time I'm there if this is for sure what it is, although I am 100% convinced it is) means that when she puts her respiratory system under strain e.g. jumping and heavier exercise, she is forced to rest, but it does not effect her in day-to-day life.

hmmm could be so many things i guess the vet should pin point it out though,
could even be like asthma or an early fatigue through excersize etc.. hope it turns out to be nothing she is a stunning girl

Thanks Rob. She is perfectly healthy in normal life and as I said, she is a very active bun and always into something. I would think conditions like Asthma may make less strenuous things hard for her too though, and this not the case? I'm sure looking into other things might mean lots of expensive tests and the like as well. It's so difficult with these buns, they are a minefield!

Will speak to vet when I'm next up there. I'm pretty sure she'll tell me it's the Pasturella that did it.

FluffSlave wrote:Thanks Rob. She is perfectly healthy in normal life and as I said, she is a very active bun and always into something. I would think conditions like Asthma may make less strenuous things hard for her too though, and this not the case? I'm sure looking into other things might mean lots of expensive tests and the like as well. It's so difficult with these buns, they are a minefield!

Will speak to vet when I'm next up there. I'm pretty sure she'll tell me it's the Pasturella that did it.

i think you could be right but hopefully she can still do fun things she loves

Sparky has pasturella so will be able to give better advice.

However I would think that a lot of the environmental advice would be hat same as for human respiratory issues. So make sure the room is as dust free as possible. Make sure you are using dust free hay. Think about the moisture levels in your room, it should not be too dry or to damp. During the winter when the central heating is on you should consider one of the heater humidifiers which is just a little ceramic pot that hangs on the radiator. You fill it with water and it helps to stop the air becoming too dry.

Hoping Sparky can provide some advice Where are you, Sparky?

Willow has good quality, dust free hay. There is a constant airflow through the room as the window is always open if only a touch, so it's never too hot or humid. I'm definitely going to look into getting a heater humidifier for the winter as well, thanks Cheryl.

Come to mention it, in that hot and humid spell we've just had she was a lot more lethargic. I put it down to her way of dealing with the heat, but maybe the humidity levels came into play and affected her condition... Hmm.

I think if you have worries over Willow I would get the vet to just check her out and take it from there, if she has Pasturella she need's to be treated for it straight away ( I apologise if she is already being treated it for it) .

Sparky is probably the best bunny to ask as she suffers with it .

Hope that beautiful girl keeps well xxxxx

Thanks Tuckerbunnies. I'm not overly concerned (gosh, that sounds terrible!) as it all seems to be making sense in my head now and she's perfectly healthy on a day-to-day basis. I wasn't aware Pasturella could be treated? I did some reading up on it and it said lots and lots of bunnies carry it without it effecting their every day life?

Grill the vet until you KNOW what he meant and what to do to help your precious Willow.

Thumper will do his Bunny 500 and then flop over and do his 'dead bunny' act. He always manages to do it where I cannot see him really well to check his breathing. The BRAT!

I think you should call your vet and get to e bottom of things so that you know what you should be looking out for Hun.

Let us know how you get on x

I'm here

I think you ought to pop Willow into the vet and ask her to listen in particular to her heart and her lungs. Pasteurella can affect internal organs without there being obvious signs at the nose end so it would be good to know if they sound clear and healthy (they probably will so don't worry too much - but it would be nice to hear from someone who knows exactly what they are listening for.)

Next time you have a snuggle with Willow, have a good listen at her nostrils and just make sure you're not hearing any crackly noises - they'll be quite obvious if you can get her to lay with her head up on your shoulder.

Does she ever sneeze? Does she make funny grunting noises when she is grooming, especially when she is twisting right round to get to her back?

We have plenty of experience of this horrible disease - the strain I have killed one of my litter-sisters at eight weeks and the other at sixteen weeks, then one of my older sisters a few months later when we were on the brink of finding the treatment plan which would work. I have had several long-term courses of anti-biotics - we actually use a farm drug by injection which Humum does at home. The only antibiotic licensed for bunnies, Baytril, and which vets always want to try first has no effect whatsoever. My Daddy Jack had a little bout of Pasteurella in the spring and three weeks of Baytril did nothing - Alamycin cleared it up in no time.

What has been key with me is keeping stress to a minimum. I'm a bit of a stressy bun as I have been on meds for one thing or another for the first year of my life, to the point where I refuse to take anything orally and am quite wary of my Humum. She now keeps my stress levels very low and uses dried Echinacea which help reduce the production of cortisol - a hormone which is released under stress and which negatively effects the immune system.

The other thing that makes a massive difference - and which means I have not needed antibiotics for months - is that we have a nebuliser and if my Humum thinks I have been a bit snotty or under the weather she pops me in a carrier for half an hour and nebulises medicine into it, which means it is getting right into the nasal passages. There is a medication called Bisolvon which thins mucus and allows it to run out of the nose (bunnies tend to get thick gunky mucus, not runny mucus). It's worth getting a pouch from your vet in case you ever need it - it should only be a couple of pounds and lasts ages. It can be nebulised, sprinkled on food or diluted into a syringe and given by mouth.

I definitely don't run around as much as some of the other buns, and could not possibly keep up with Gizmo - if you watch the videos of us out in the yard I spend a lot of time resting and he spends all his time binkying. But I have my moments and do the odd binky and bunny 500. I also flop out on my side when I have been overdoing it a bit, as this is the easiest position to breathe in and recover. But I know my limits and am a happy bun as long as I have a Gizmo to lay on, a Humum to spoil me rotten and a Hudad for the odd nose rub

Thanks for all the info Sparky. I've been doing some reading up on it, and it seems vets only offer treatment if the disease has manifested itself. Willow has none of the symptoms you described and will quite happily and easily binky and bunny 500 until her heart is content.

Still, I'm going to give my vet a ring and get her booked in for a check over. I'd like to find out what exactly they meant by "a respiratory disease that is commonly carried in rabbits" (although I'm sure this is Pasturella, maybe they thought I was dumb!) , and get her heart and lungs listened to. Whilst she is not manifesting any of these symptoms I'd rather make sure everything is ok anyway, and catch it early if it is thinking of rearing its ugly head.

Will let you all know how we get on.

One of the questions you should be asking the vets is 'what should I have in for emergencies?'.

Bruce is a dental bun and he gets occasional gastro symptoms that are sometimes related to his teeth and sometimes related to stress. He shows this by stopping eating suddenly. It has happened over the weekend before and it has happened over the christmas/new year holidays. My vet has agreed that I can have metacam and ranitidine at home to administer as an when it is required. The mix of the 2 gets his guts moving again and the metacam will hold off any pain. This will keep him happy for a few days until we can see our vet to get teeth checked. It can be really hard to get out of hours vets to treat your bun in the way you would like and they can cost an absolute fortune. Also with buns often speed in administering meds is the key to successful recovery. It may not be a prescription drug you need.

*WARNING BROAD STATEMENT ALERT!*

I think most vets do assume that their clients are dumb or at least not actually very interested in their small pet's health. If you demonstrate your knowledge by asking pertinent questions about what you should be expecting in Willow's case then I think you should see a big difference in attitude from your vet and they will be less likely to treat you as dumb in the future. As you said there are issues with the pressure on the respiratory/circulation system in larger buns. You need to know what this underlying issue will mean for Willow longer term. Don't forget to ask what symptoms mean that you need to get her to the vet asap. It can be hard to know what an emergency looks like in rabbits as they are masters of hiding their symptoms so being clear about what you are looking for should ensure Willow's ongoing health.

Thanks Cheryl. I'm going to be asking if there's anything I will need to keep here at home in case of emergencies. I'll also ask about subtle symptoms that she may display.

I just want what's best for my girl. At the moment she is perfectly healthy, but as you say, who knows how this condition may affect her in the long run. I want to make sure she stays as well as she is now.

Willow has a vets appointment tomorrow night. They're going to listen to her heart and lungs and answer any questions for me. They also said if they link any findings tomorrow with her reaction to the GA I get a reduced consultation fee, as they have then diagnosed a condition or something? Bonus, although there is no price on Willow staying happy and healthy.

Sending lots of vibes you get to the bottom of what's wrong

Thank-you.

Will see what the vet has to say tomorrow and go from there.

Make double sure they check Willow's front AND back teeth really well.

When Willow went in for her "not-spay" as we call it - since it didn't go ahead after her reaction to the GA - just after they put her under and before she had her episode they gave her teeth a thorough check and all are perfectly fine! She is a very good hay eater.

Keep us updated hun x

I always write down all the questions I have so that I don't forget any :-)

Good luck xxxx nose rubs for willow too xxxx

at least she is going to get a check up and fingers crossed you will get some answers

Thanks guys.

She is perfectly happy and healthy. Eating and drinking fine and went mad last night doing a looong session of binkies and bunny 500's around the bed, but I still want to get her listened to and get some advice - which hopefully we will tomorrow!