WWYD - Bonding rabbits.

Hi,
I'm new to the forum and I was looking for some advice please.
I have bonded 1 trio od males and 3 pairs of buns but I am not massivly experienced. I am coming up with some behaviour I have not seem before and wanted some advice. I have a bonded pair and am introducing a third. They live in hutches opposite each other and in runs beside each other.

The pair are a male - Scooby and female - Winky, and I am trying to introduce a younger female - Alice.

Alice is submisive to Winky, Winky washes Alice, Scooby washes Alice, All three will sleep next to each other on the sofa, and Winky seems happy there, but when Alice turns her back to Winky (and occasionally Scooby) she is bitten on her bottom or side of tummy. When on the floor (I only have two down at a time) Winky will meet Alice head to head (Alice flattens herself) Winky will wash Alice, then bites her side and chases her. Alice runs away.

If one of the rabbit bits I remove the one that has bitten (If it is on the sofa I put them on the floor and generally they leave it 20 seconds or so and jump back up, where they wash the other and get along).

I think Winky gets frustrated at Alice because she doesn't seem to know how to groom her. I have tried again this afternoon, in a mutual, small space with a slippery floor. There was a large amount of chasing, always Winks chasing Alice. Winky would lower her head to Alice and Alice just kept her head low. They are currently ignoring each other, though both have washed and eaten some hay.

Scratch that, Alice has just got up and gone over to Winky, who is ignoring her completely. Alice is now scoffing hay.

I think Alice was taken from her mum when she was too little. I got Alice from a rescue with her having been in a pet shop, home (where she was poked a lot), in a foster home then in a rescue centre she was 18 wks when I got her. I'm not sure how much social interaction she has had with other buns...

This may be where the problem lies....

Should I leave them to get on as Alice always takes the submissive role and runs away, or should I stop this and get them to live next to each other for longer?

Winks

Its a difficult one - and im have no experience in bonding im afraid so would only be able to offer you general advice, but you seem to be doing really well anyway!

Someone with LOADS of experience of this will be along soon x x

Thank you! I love your sig!!
Winks

Hello there

It does sound as though there is a lot of positive behaviour going on between your three, but I do understand where you are coming from with the lack of grooming. When I tried to bond my Gabriel with a girlie this year, even though he was the dominant one and was grooming her she wouldn't reciprocate. Not because she wanted to be dominant but I am sure because she didn't seem to realise what was expected of her. Eventually he got fed up with her and lost interest became miserable so I decided to call it a day. A similar thing seemed to be happening with Spring when Gabe was bonded with her but then she did catch on and now they are happily bonded so it may well just take time with your three.

Can I ask where you are carrying out the bonding, I have used a neutral area within a pen in the past. Is Alice spayed by the way?

Winks3 wrote:Alice is submisive to Winky, Winky washes Alice

Why do you say Alice is submissive to Winky? If Winky is washing Alice, it sounds more like Alice is / wants to be dominant over Winky.

Who was dominant when Scooby and Winky were in a pair?

Is Scooby completely unbothered by it all?

Winks3 wrote:Winky would lower her head to Alice and Alice just kept her head low.

This sounds like they are both demanding grooming and sorting out which of them is going to be the dominant one.

Sixer wrote:Is Alice spayed by the way?

More or less what I was going to ask - are they all neutered? And if so for more than 6 weeks?

I agree with Sparky. I often think that our understanding of bunny hierarchy is not accurate. Flo did not groom Bruce for about 12 months after they bonded and I am not sure whether she was being aloof or scared. Bruce certainly grooms Flo more than she does he seems often to be doing it in a 'there there dear' sort of way. If Flo is doing the grooming it seems to come from a much more genuine way. Which bun is dominant? I have no clue. It depends on the day. Bruce would not dare really cross Flo when she is riled but if she is just a bit teasy he quickly puts her in her place. Equally she will scold him if he is being annoying. Like humans buns need to find a way to exist together equitably. If one of your females is truly the submissive one always in your trio you will end up with one very depressed rabbit.

Nipping the back end is a dominance thing and lowering the head to be groomed is done by the dominant bun (in my experience). Rabbits have complex relationships with each other. I have two trios, the first is Vince who is dominant but does groom his girls, they don't seem to groom him though, that's my job Faline is submissive to Vince and Hazel but considers me to be lower on the pecking order than her. (i'm down in the litter box somewhere ) Hazel will sometimes chase and nip Faline and Vince will intervene if it gets out of hand. Vince thinks he is superior to me, however, when trying to catch him in the garden he will eventually flatten to the floor so I can pick him up. He will also look sheepish and stop being naughty if I shout at him if he is being mean to his girls cos he's spotted another buck in the garden. Ultimatley I am boss but they get to walk all over me most of the time. I've had them 3 years so feel I know them pretty well.

My other trio, the buck Boo is again top bun, followed by Hermione and at the bottom is Easter (they are sisters) If Hermione has a nip and chase at Easter, Boo will just sit and watch the entertainment. He will not intervene which is why I thought Hermione was top bun, but she is not. It is Boo. They all groom each other regardless of postion in the pecking order.

Based on my own buns, the buck is usually dominant.

Alice may be getting bitten when she turns her back to Winky because turning your back on somebun is an insult (i get this a lot, and the glance over the shoulder to see if I have noticed). Maybe this is happening?

Flattening to the ground can be dominance and submission depending on how it is done. What are their tails doing? Do they shake their tails (annoyance/irritation)? Which way are the insides of the ears facing as well as whether they are up or down?

Are the girls neutered? This will make a huge difference. Hermione used to beat up Easter and both would hump Boo half to death and spray wee all over him. Once neutered all this behaviour stopped straight away. I don't think they would have stayed together had I not spayed them.

rabbit communication is so complex, my hubby once remarked how funny it was that Vince would flick his back feet whenever hubby went into the avairy to say hello. He was quite upset when I laughed and told him that was Vince telling him to 'bog off'

Thanks all!

I will try and answer the questions.

Yes all buns neutered.
Winky is dominant over all, Scooby as well. (She was with her brother and sister too)
It is a neutral environment where none of the buns have been!
Alice is truly submissive, it is a complete body to the floor and absolutly flattens herself. (She is submissive to Scooby too, he moves her around the run with his body language).
Scooby is indifferent. He mainly and eats and washes both of them.
There is no tail shaking.
Scooby is definitely not dominant and has never been, even with Winky's mum. To get them to mate was interesting as she was humping him!


There has been quite a lot of progress this evening (I think banding together because of the fireworks has helped slightly too.)

They have eaten side by side, Alice washed Winky's back (for about 1/2 a second) The chasing has subsided considerably, about 1 in an hour.

Thanks all for your suggestions.
W

Overall, it sounds as if it is going well. I do think it is more difficult to bond a single into a pair than it is three individual buns. How have they been overnight?

Winks3 wrote:Alice is truly submissive, it is a complete body to the floor and absolutly flattens herself.

I'd be interested to hear other Hoppers' thoughts but I am not convinced this is truly submissive behaviour. When I have seen it, it has almost seemed to be 'I am going to flatten myself here while I think about things and see what you do next.' I have seen buns go from the flattened pose to aggression rather than retreat.

They are OK, there was very little chasing, but it seems to be a getting along with each other rather than enjoying each other's company.

Sparky wrote:I'd be interested to hear other Hoppers' thoughts but I am not convinced this is truly submissive behaviour. When I have seen it, it has almost seemed to be 'I am going to flatten myself here while I think about things and see what you do next.' I have seen buns go from the flattened pose to aggression rather than retreat.

Yes I would like to know too; Alice has never chased or bitten Winky or retaliated in any way... She has shown no aggression.

Sparky wrote:I do think it is more difficult to bond a single into a pair than it is three individual buns.

I agree the trio of boys took me 8 months. The other pairs were almost instant.

The dutch girlie that I mentioned that I tried with Gabriel did this, flattened herself to the floor. Given that she allowed Gabriel to hump and nip her this seemed like submissive behaviour to me, particularly as when I stroked her she would flatten herself down too.

Maybe we are reading too much into the who grooms who dominant/submissive roles. Maybe asking to be groomed is not always about being dominant. Both Rosie and BJ ask the other to groom them and both reciprocate, ditto with Herbie and Hollie. The only way that I would say that BJ and Herbie are maybe dominant is that they do the chasing if they catch wind of the other buns. Looking at their normal everyday behaviour I would be hard pushed to say who is dominant. Does there necessarily have to be a dominant bun?

I think the only thing this post really says is that buns are way more complicated than you would maybe expect

I think you might be right, I think Alice is desperate to be accepted. She does everything your dutch girl did.

They are complicated! I may have to stick with horses, far easier!

Thanks all so far, any other ideas would be welcomed!
W

If there is any one who is still following, there is more improvement... All three were determined to share their pellets from the same bowl today!

Still a small amount of chasing going on though...

Sounds very promising - a bit of chasing is normal. They may need supervising for a while though to make sure it doesn't develop into full blown aggression. Fingers crossed all continues to go well.

Hi all,
Thanks so much for all of your advice. I think I really needed to be able to talk it through with other people.
The buns have now been together for nearly 60 hours, I put them in the one of the out door runs today, and this evening when they came in there has (so far - about 2 hours) no chasing or nasty behaviour. The buns have slept in a pile and shared food bowls. The appear to be actively seeking out each other to sit next to!

Hopefully this is the start of a trio! Fingers crossed!

W
x

Sounds blimmin excellent!

I really hope that this is it for them!

Keep us updated :-)

Fingers crossed that this works out. I think as long as the girls sort out who is top bun, you will be OK. You might still get a bit of nipping between them for a wee while but it does sound positive.

Were back to bonding bella & charlie, he kept trying to mount her to start with today but after a few sprays of water he soon stopped. Eventually he got a snuggle from her, such a lovely sight, they were nose to nose gentle against each other, bella had her eyes closed, he spoilt it by mounting her. There is no fighting but they do chase a bit mostly her playing hard to get tho. Wondering how long it will take before can put them in combined house.

Oh I hope they get along soon. xx

I found it really hard this time taking that leap of faith to leave them to it and not interrupt the chasing. I got a lot of support (For which I am saying a massive thank you) just talking through what was happening on here.

W
x

Winks3 wrote:I put them in the one of the out door runs today, and this evening when they came in there has (so far - about 2 hours) no chasing or nasty behaviour.

I'm really pleased they seem to be settling into a trio

Humum has a theory that buns can be quicker to settle into a bond if they are introduced in one place, then moved after they first start showing some positive behaivour to a new, neutral place. She hasn't been able to bond enough buns since thinking it to be sure of the theory, but it was something she noticed with Jack and Layla and deliberately tried with Cindy and Gizmo, and both pairs settled very quickly in their 'second' territory...

dizzylynn wrote:Were back to bonding bella & charlie, he kept trying to mount her to start with today but after a few sprays of water he soon stopped.

If he is mounting but not biting and she is not in danger of turning on him, you should let him get on with it. It is part of the process (just don't let him mount her head).

It was her head twice thats when we stopped him straight away, gave him time to stop other end, hes not bit her at all so thats good, she more avoids him than interacts.

I'm so glad to hear your trio are well on their way to becoming a close knit little warren!

I know how nerve wracking bonding buns can be - I've just bonded my two and the support I got from the hoppers here was unbelievable. They are now totally loved up and attached to each other 24 hours a day, and I'm sure a lot of that is due to the help and advice I got here. This is a great forum

Oh and also, my two don't really have a dominant/submissive relationship. Willow never grooms Mojo but he grooms Willow lots, however neither one is really the boss - they just share everything! They had a bowl of pellets each tonight and Mojo left his to go and share with Wilow?

It is lovely when they all get on, I am pleased love.

Hugs

JO xx