Bonding new rabbit to existing pair..where to from here?

I'm new to the site and would appreciate some expert help please.
I have a 'free range' bonded pair (a dominant adult male and a one-eyed female ) and am trying to bond them with a young eight month old male. All are neutered. For a couple of months they were in the same room overnight in cages, litter boxes swapped etc.. but the bonded couple were let out of the room in the daytime.
We started bonding sessions in the bathroom not usually frequented by any rabbit a couple of months ago. Sessions short but became quite aggressive so we left it a while. The young rabbit especially was very fired up.
Two weeks back we started again on our upstairs balcony (neutral territory). The young one would just run across at the others and attack them. There was no warning of aggressive behaviour, no circling or nipping it was just attack and within a second there would be rabbits locked rolling around on the ground!!! We had the usual armoury (water sprays,metal food covers etc..) but even with two of us it seemed to be difficult to maintain control so called it off. Beside my bonded pair were becoming very intimidated by him. After each session of no more than 45 minutes we would return them to their cages in sight of one another , but it seemed like every new session we were starting all over again.
I read about the 'fast track' method of keeping them together all the time and have tried a variation of this over the last six days. They are now on the top floor in a large enclosure about nine feet across. When there is no supervision it is divided in two, the pair on one side - the baby on the other but they can still see/ smell each other. I try swapping them over every day or so to avoid them being so territorial.
Between 4 - 7 hours every day the partition is opened and we are with them.Things are kind of getting better, they will eat food from the same big bowl and there are times when all rabbits are within a metre of each other and are ignoring each other. Good signs.
However the other evening the small one squeezed through the partition to the other side - and there had obviously been a fight when I returned to the room. Both adult rabbits were bitten.
Since that episode the tables have somewhat turned. The pair now have control and sort of jointly hunt the young one. Whereas before if one of the pair nipped or boxed, the young rabbit would instantly retaliate. Now, when one of the adults gets close he thumps and runs away to safety. He seems terrified! The teenage mindless aggression has gone but will the well bonded couple ever accept him?

Questions.
-Should I move them to another neutral area?
-If they are kept closely like this is several hours supervised 'together time' every day, enough to go forward and foster tolerance?

Any other suggestions gratefully received.
Thanks

Hi Theere,

Welcome to Happy hoppers.

Some bonds can take a long time to get there and it sounds like you are doing all the right things with the cross scenting and letting them see each other etc.

Some one will be along soon who can offer more help

K x

Hi and welcome to HH
It does sound like you've done everything right so far. Some bonds can take a while to establish. Only thing I can immediately think of is the the young one may still have had testosterone in his sytem, it can still be afactory 8-10 weeks after de-plumming. I suspect that the change in him is partly the testosterone going now.

Swapping them between the two halves is a good idea, as is cross scenting. When you have them together, make sure there is more than 3 of everything - otherwise they will be territorial over things. Don't use food bowls, just scatter the food around, and make sure there's plenty of veg, it takes longer to eat.
If you give them toys, like food in toilet roll innards, or treat balls, make sure there's four.

TBH, it sounds like they just need more time, and if things are generally improving, that's a good sign. Fighting is perfectly normal, you just need to intervene if it looks like bun may get hurt, or if they are kicking with back legs.

Should I move them to another neutral area? I wouldn't yet, if it detriarorates, then maybe.

If they are kept closely like this is several hours supervised 'together time' every day, enough to go forward and foster tolerance?
I would think so. The thing with domestic buns is that as much as we like to think of them as a bonded pair of group, the reality is that they are tolerating each other, because there is no alternative. In the wild, rabbits don't always bond for life, in a hareem situation, the buck can easily go off his chosen female and move in with another. we restrict this, so it cab cause fight every now n then. Tolerance is good, and the more time they are ok with each other, the better.

I'd keep going for a couple of weeks, you could always try a car journey in tyhe same carrier - not at all ideal, but it may just insigate the bond, if all else fails. Good luck

Jay wrote:, The thing with domestic buns is that as much as we like to think of them as a bonded pair of group, the reality is that they are tolerating each other, because there is no alternative. In the wild, rabbits don't always bond for life, in a hareem situation, the buck can easily go off his chosen female and move in with another. we restrict this, so it cab cause fight every now n then. Tolerance is good, and the more time they are ok with each other, the better.

:

This is very interesting Jay as the trio's set up allows the two females of the group to be seperate from each other if they so choose, which they often do utilise to this effect. Also Vince will favour one doe over the other quite randomly. Buns are facinating.

Thank you so much to Jay and others for replying so promptly to my question.

Bunnies are still up on the top floor and all of them and I, are now truly fed up with the process. Me climbing the stairs all of the time and them being well and truly confined!!
I may change the bonding location soon but I will ask more about this later...
Not quite familiar with the forum- I mistakenly posted the original question on the 'photoshoot' section when it should have been in the 'tall tales and rabbit chinwag' - I think!?
Any way can this message be cross posted now for other possible comments/ views?
Sarah
ps. I will introduce myself quite soon on the 'meet and greet' as quite rudely, I haven't done so thus far.

No probs Sarah, have moved the thread

I think it can be moved but im not quite sure how to do this myself.

Katieb wrote:I think it can be moved but im not quite sure how to do this myself.

See above post

Thanks very much Jay for moving this.

Things improving now - at least there is no mindless violence! Rabbit pen still partitioned when we are not there but they can see each other through the wire fence. Have had a bit of chasing and nipping by the adult bonded pair but now if I think it is intended aggressively they get a zap on the nose with the water spray and I shout "NO!". The young male is absolutely terrified of the pair and as soon as they get close he runs away -fast! . All boxes and tunnels have multiple exits and I have put in a big wooden box that he can jump up on to to get away. The pair are not interested whatsoever in including him - they snuggle up together. I have had a go at this 'coerced closeness' moving the young male close to the adult male and stroking them both . They both love been stroked and become very submissive and sleepy. I know some people say you must not touch them during the bonding process but at this stage moving them together in a calmed state may get them to believe that the other rabbit means them no harm. It just may, may lead to some mutual trusting.
Will bring them all down to the ground floor this weekend and set up a bonding pen here - although not a neutral zone the floor would have been cleaned and I will put all new stuff in to the enclosure.
Appreciate any other suggestions for developing a bond?? The baby is still obviously the odd one out and scared.
They certainly aren't ready for the 'banana trick' of smearing it on their noses yet and a car ride.. I think that might prompt a fight all in a carrier together. A bit too close for comfort.

Thanks so much
Sarah

Hi Sarah,

Im not an experienced bonder but it does sound like you are doing everything I can.

has the little guy been neutered? It may be they are happier to accept him when he is not an intact male. Bonds often fail when one of the buns are not neutered.

My only concern is that the little chap is frightened bless him, I think offering him as much re-assurance as possible is a good idea.

I hope things continue to improve x x

Thank you Katie
Yes definitely all rabbits neutered. He was neutered in the summer. Just a little background - He was a purchase from a pet shop /garden centre. I had been going in for months to get plants, hay etc.. and always saw him in this glass box about 80cms by 50 cm. (The shop assistants give me a wide berth - they know I will rant about the size of accommodation etc.) I was told he had been there five months and was shortly going back to the breeder because he hadn't been sold. They had no idea what would happen to him but guessed he would either be used for breeding stock if suitable or have the chop!!! (rrrrrrr.....) I told them to get a box and I would take him home. Talk about impulse purchasing....We set up one of our dog cages for him in the living room. Although apparently well cared for he didn't have enough strength to jump out of his litter tray at first. All those months in a small space he had no muscle..... don't get me going on the subject.......
Thanks for taking the time to reply.
Sarah
By the way I live in the Netherlands and still need to introduce myself on the meet and greet
He is a sweet sweet rabbit with people but initially terrible with the other rabbits. when we started bonding. I think what we have seen is teenage rabbit behaviour - just like teenage kids.... a tendency towards the aggressive and volatile.

Well done for rescuing this gorgeous little guy.

Yea, go ahead and introduce yourself hun, there are lots of fab threads to get involved in and we are a friendly bunch.

Would love to hear more about your other buns too.

K x

We actually have a lot in common: we both haven't introduced ourselves yet (just noticed now ), we both live in the Netherlands and we're both bonding a young rabbit with an existing pair
The only difference is we haven't yet had bonding sessions. For the time being we just keep them next to each other until we notice they're eating together or sleeping next to each other.
It does sound like you're doing everything right, so you just have to wait a few weeks

Brilliant!! - very pleased to hear from you...and I thought I was the only one in this tiny country that looked after rabbits like this. I get blank faces from everyone when I explain that I have ' house rabbits' or 'echt huis konijnen'. The state of rabbit awareness here is certainly not on the same level as in the UK or the US.
I live close to The Hague, I see you are from Maastricht.
Regards
Sarah

that's true it's different here.. they spoil their dogs way more than any other pet, that's why when I went to get Garrus and Benezia they gave me weird looks, because I brought a huge "fancy" basket and they've already prepared a little box
But I didn't know, because I'm from Aruba and there we spoil all our pets so it was only natural to me that they be kept inside running around in the living room.
How is it going with the bonding by the way? are they getting used to each other?

There is certainly a long way to go here in the Netherlands..
People have really outdated attitudes. Of course they know how to look after rabbits .. they kept them as children (yes... out the back of the garden in a small hutch, on their own and were quickly forgotten about) 'Times have changed' - I feel like telling people.

Are you a member of the Rabbit Welfare Association in the UK (RWA)?
Worth taking out an overseas membership if you are not. It is a very good organisation!!! Lots of energy behind it, their latest public campaign is directed towards rabbit housing called 'A hutch is not enough.' Find the video on You tube or the 'Runaround' UK website.

As for the bonding. All downstairs in a big bonding pen, partitioned when I can't be there.
I'm not managing to sit in with them more than a couple of hours a day and I think they need more than that now but I'm a bit bored with the whole thing. Lots of ignoring going on but every so often my one eyed female will stalk the baby and then give chase and really try and have a good bite. He is so scared of her and watches for her all the time. He has also become terribly nervous - if one of the big rabbits (especially her) moves towards him he races away. Not so bothered about any more injuries now because he can get out of trouble fast!! I still hover and if I see teeth about to be used I squirt right in the eye!!
I need to keep this set up going until he is truly accepted by the pair as opposed to merely tolerated. I'm just bothered that he never will be a part of the group.
Thanks for asking
S
ps I see you have these lovely Vlaamse Reus. As rabbits go, aren't they generally more relaxed?

I saw the little hutch in the corner of the yard too many times too. It's not nice to see them like that. Especially if they're just for being bred and not actually given the attention they deserve.

It's horrible to hear they still haven't accepted him. Maybe if it doesn't work out you just have to keep them in separate rooms so the little one doesn't have to be on a look out all the time anymore. I can imagine it can get a little tiring for him too.

I wouldn't know if Garrus is more relaxed haha they're all still young (under 1 year) so they like to play a lot and jump on the couch and Garrus especially likes to jump on the dining table when we're eating so we feed them around the same time that we eat. Garrus is more cuddly, though. We call him the charmer he really likes to cuddle up to us and lick us all over