bonding new rabbit to existing pair -stopped but miserable..

Sorry Happy Hoppers you must be so sick of me..

The bonding pen was dismantled the other evening and I put them in their big cages right next to each other - the pair in one and the young boy in the other.
I let them out to give them their big bowl of veg as they'd been having together for the previous weeks and my female just the attacked the young one, the male followed suit. Fur flying everywhere!! I took him out so he could run in the other room- when I returned she had peed everywhere. I thought we got past the continual marking of territory weeks ago. I don't think that having them in the house together is going to work at all ....they will try and hunt him down now.

They have been in their cages for TWO WHOLE DAYS - poor things, because I don't know how to restart or what to do ..

I read through all the Hoppers suggestions (thanks), then looked at the video on bonding then went back to my House Rabbit handbook etc..etc.. and realised so much now that Bonding Rabbits is an 'inexact science'.
Basic stuff like neutering first, bonding in neutral territory everyone agrees on but beyond that even the very best experts beg to differ on so many things during the bonding process. For example:
*House Rabbit Society suggests car rides / Anne Mc Bride doesn't really advocate it because it is a form of 'coerced closeness' and it will not cement bonds.
*Some people say do not touch the rabbits at all during bonding because your scent confuses! them but stroking is used during bonding video to calm rabbits.
*Suggested on HRS site doing maybe two short sessions in a day and building up the times whereas one lady ( sorry can't remember right now) says once into the bonding never separate the rabbits because it means you will have to start all over again the next time they come face to face. (Wow! I would have been up all night on duty for weeks!!)

Now just utterly confused ......


I've only done two pair bondings so far. The first was very difficult and generally aggressive and took six months. The second was easier I think because I was working with a bereaved rabbit who was quite lonely.

*****I need to restart this because I can't bear to have to rehome my small chap but I have a HUGE CONCERN that the two are going to be really violent towards the young one ( he has already had part of his ear bitten off!)

My new plan.
----------------

They have been in a reasonable sized pen for bonding and the young one dashes away really scared when the bonded pair are near so I have to start again 'SMALL' - maybe with them all in a very large box or on two big chairs face to face. That way he cannot run away and they all have to be close. Will need lots of stroking/calming and deflecting by me (with leather gloves, or what's left of them!) to stop him getting bitten.
I will keep doing these sessions again and again in a very small space until they start to tolerate each other. If it deteriorates then we have a car ride because that really stresses them... As tolerance improves we move to a bigger neutral space..etc..etc...

Question 1
*After each one of these intensive session can they then go back to their respective cages until the next session or do I have to keep them all together. With a reasonable expectation of continual aggression initially I would need to be present 24/7 and sleep next to them (cannot sleep on/near floor because I have two metal knees!)

Question 2
*Neutral space- my bunnies have been in an enclosure for six weeks so they have not been around the house in that time. If I clean the wood floor and put up wire fencing covered in towels to obstruct their view would this be neutral enough?

Question 3
*Still OK to use water spray in the face if I think one is ready to really bite?


Would really appreciate if you could look at 'My New Plan' and questions.
Maybe I should speak to Sophie?

Thanks so much to anyone who reads this...
(Now drowning in dreams at night about bonding bunnies!! but it is really getting to me.)

Sarah

Hi Sarah,

What a shame you are having such trouble. However, you are trying to introduce a third rabbit into an existing bonded pair so it is going to be harder and more unpredictable because it introduces more variables than just another rabbit. The dynamics between the bonded pair have a much greater emphasis.

I tend to agree with Ann McB about the car rides. It does work because it is mutual fear and the bunnies do tend to turn to each other for reassurance, but it doesn't really promote a bond. What it does is allow them to get over the initial feelings of fear of an unknown rabbit and attack it. They can get used to the other rabbit's scent too.

I also tend to agree that once you start to bond, you keep going. By chopping and changing and removing buns - although I completely understand why you've done it and am in no way criticising you - you are confusing the issue and slowing things down.

It might be well the leave things for a couple of weeks and then make a concerted effort to do it over a weekend or a week. Then have a completely fresh area that no-one has been in with all equipment either new or washed over with a 10% solution of biological washing powder to remove the scent. You need to sit in there with them and give the new bun somewhere to retreat to. You can also put the three buns together in a tiny area and hold them side by side so they can get used to his smell.

Try bonding in a bathroom where the floor is washable and if vinyl or tiles, not comfortable for rabbits to walk on - it tends to make them a bit more cautious. Sit with them and watch. You will see a bit of chasing and nipping, but full on locking is to be stopped instantly. If you see humping, make sure that it is not to the head as rabbits have been known to bite the person humping and damage their genitals.

If this is getting a bit much for you, have a break for a while then try again.

Hi Honey,

I wish I knew something about this that could help you, I really hope someone will be along soon who has lots of experience of this.

Dont worry about us being fed up of your questions - we never will be we just want to help.

Katie x

Nickie,Katie,
You are wonderful! Been out tonight but will sleep on this and get back to you with a few points tomorrow.
I just really want this to turn out well...
thanks
Sarah

Wow it sounds sO very hard, but yourdoing all you can and maybe he next 'tweak' in the plan is going to be what works. Wishing you the very best of luck xc

Sarah, you've done everything you can and done what any of us woudl have done, and you are right that advice is confusing, and not all bonds or rabbits go the same.

What Nickie has said is right, bonding a pair into a trio is a differnet thing to bonding two, as there are different dynamics going on, sometimes rabbits just walk into it, othere times, like with your 3, there are some issues that need to be resolved before full acceptance.

Sometimes we have to accept that some rabbits do not want the partner we want them to have, but I don't think youre at at this point yet, but as we can't see what you can see, I wouldn't say that for sure.

I'll just clarify something re: car. I worked with Anne McB on that video, and we talked about all the text as we wrote it.

As an introductory device, forced bonding is not the best way to approach it. As Nickie says it can create a temporary union of scared rabbits, but this does not mean that the rabbits are or will be friends afterwards. Once buns proper fall out it's harder to get a bond back, so this isn't advised in the first instance.

However, I also sat with Anne on a phone conference with an owner like yourself, who was having bonding troubles and had tried everything, as advised. As a last resort, the owner was advised to do the car journey, and it worked. Sadly a few hours later, they were fighting agan, and ultimately had to be permanently seperated.

So it can be approropriate, just not a good introductory tool.

As for other advice, well, it is confusing, and I and everyone else wishes that the information put out by bodies who command some authority/respect would sing from the same song sheet.

All you can do is decide who's advice is the most credible. Tricky, cos different things work with different rabbits.

I listen to Anne first, not just cos I'm friends with her, but because she's the only person in the world to have PhD in rabbit behaviour, and her life's work is in animal/rabbit behaviour. That doesn't mean I accept it blindly, and we do cross on a few things sometimes.

Plan:
Sound brilliant, I would keeo the sessions short to aviod the possibility of fighting. Maybe start with a couple of minutes and increase until you can leave them together?

Question 1
*After each one of these intensive session can they then go back to their respective cages until the next session or do I have to keep them all together. With a reasonable expectation of continual aggression initially I would need to be present 24/7 and sleep next to them (cannot sleep on/near floor because I have two metal knees!)
I think play this by ear, but for the first few sessions, keep it short?
If/when you decide to leave them all together, you will need to be there pretty much 24/7 for a while.

Question 2
*Neutral space- my bunnies have been in an enclosure for six weeks so they have not been around the house in that time. If I clean the wood floor and put up wire fencing covered in towels to obstruct their view would this be neutral enough?
Depends what you mean by clean. The only way to remove rabbit scent is to make up a solution of 1:10 parts biological washing powder/liquid:water, and clean the floor with that, and the skirtings. You can then (although this is just the icing, so to speak) wipe the surfaces with surgical spirit, leave for a day, then go over with water.

Question 3
*Still OK to use water spray in the face if I think one is ready to really bite?
Aviod the ears, I found squiting the back was ok, but see how they react.

I'd also add that you can still create a sress factor that will bring them together in the pen. Put the hoover on, or some loudish music, or similar.

If you go down the car journey route, it may be an idea to take them in seperate carriers on the same journey for 1/2 an hour first, before putting them together. This will already mean they are stressed and approachable for comforting each other. When you put them together, ideally you would have a new scent free carrier, but you know, it's more spends. You can clean one carrier out as above, and use that. If not poss, then the bonded pair have to go into the new one;s carrier, not the other way around.

I so hope this can work, keep us posted

Just a very quick reply to all you lovely people that have taken so much of your time and considered thought to reply to me. Also, from others who have not ever ventured into bonding, such real encouragement. It is so heartwarming, believe me....
I really, really have done my homework on this. I am reasonably new to rabbits ( about five years) but I have tried to learn continually during that time. Mainly this is for me to care for these bunnies but also to 'arm myself' with reasoned knowledge so that I can gently sow a seed amongst the almost total ignorance out there. It is an uphill battle and all of us on HH know that only too well, especially those at the front line, in the animal welfare organisations and rescues. We all just chip, chip, away....
I will keep you posted and I will consider all these comments - carefully.
Thanks Jay in particular for your acknowledgement that there is quite a lot of conflicting information around to sift through - that in itself was so reassuring.
Back to you soon
Sarah
ps Just returned from Ikea - bought a big heavy rug and a huge plastic 'bonding box'. Poor family has been dragged out on a 'bunny shop'. They suffer!