Rory head tilt :( * photos may be upsetting*

Honestly Maysie nothing to appologise for- don't change, your a diamond xx

Beki,

My Humum also had a read of 'When Your Rabbit Needs Special Care' this lunchtime.

She only gets half an hour so didn't have time to do more than dip in, but these are her thoughts:

1) There's a lot of positive stuff in it about buns who have either fully recovered from head tilt / E Cunili or been able to live with it and enjoy a good quality of life despite some mobility problems.

2) There's also an interesting point made about euthanasia - an opinion was given that sometimes this decision is taken more to alleviate the owner's distress at seeing the animal suffer than it being the best or only thing left to do (not sure if I have explained that very well - the point is made in the book a bit better). She has agonised over this since Molly died, as twice the decision in the vets was whether to PTS or to try her on one more antibiotic. The vet asked two questions each time - how is her quality of life, and is there a reasonable chance of recovery. Although her quality of life was poor she also had good spells, and the chance of recovery was reasonable so the decision each time was to keep trying. Humum has wondered since whether she made Molly suffer more than she needed to by not euthanising, and is comfortable with the decision made - when Molly died, she went very quickly and Humum knows nobody could have done anything more for her. But in a way it was harder to decide not to PTS

Of course, you know Rory better than anyone and have to make those incredibly tough decisions for yourself and him. Whatever happens, you can count on us for support - the hoppers made losing Molly easier to bear

Sending top-up vibes for the handsome fella - give him a snuggle from us

Aw so sorry i missed this

Just sending my hugs and thoughts to you & Rory

He is such a cutie loveable bun

Thanks for this, it's a valid point about the owner suffering more than the bunny, it's killing me to see him stumble about looking like his head is on side ways, he looks like a broken toy and when it first happened I actually thought I might be sick - it looks to me like he is being tortured and I'm allowing it to continue. The said the thought of letting the vet put him to sleep goes against every instinct I have to protect him, plus I love him and don't want to lose him, he is so special to me- and more than anything I want to watch him continue to develop his little life, and go on to have a friend etc, and my daughter will be devastated of we lose him. I had a long chat with the vet last night, she thinks his chances of recovering from the EC are very slim, she said it was amazing how well I got him after the first bought, what's next? Fits? Brain damage? The prognosis isn't good. For the meantime the plan is to keep on the same over the weekend, follwom that we will change drugs but there will be a higher risk to him of side effects, and if he stops eating we are really in trouble. All the time he chims things and purrs and licks my hand I know to keep on xx

Mr laid back is currently sprawled out with his legs spread like the gigolo he is, 'wonky head? No testicles? Whatever, I still got it'

hi hun,

Just popped on quickly to say re the Metacam.....John told me that a bun needs 5 x as much, twice as often. So a 1kg bun would need a 5kg dose twice daily. Daisy weighs about 1.5kg and has been on a 5kg dose twice daily for a long time.

Sending love to you Yasi and Rory, and all the get well vibes in the world. Thinking of you x x x x

Really!?! Omg - I talked to Lucy the vet about this last night and she went away and looked into it and tolde he could have a max of 0.6 mls, but that this carried a high risk of agrevating his tummy. I will call her again and ask her to call John, I have emailed her Jays notes from the conference and I know she has put alot of hrs in studying up on EC since Rory first had his eye problem - I so need some
Bloody sleep xx

I didn't want to push it but the dosage for Metacam is, I think, too low. It was always thought that Metacam would cause problems with kidneys and stomachs, and vets used to prescribe drops of the stuff. About 3 or 4 years ago, research proved that this wasn't the case, and vets suddenly were able to prescribe proper pain relief.

Now, the tricky bit is this: In buns that do have compromised kidneys, it can cause a problem. Rory may weell have affected kidneys from EC.

John's view on pain relief is that pain itself causes so many other prolems that he gets the bun out of pain by giving much bigger doses, then he brings the dose down, gradually, until you find the point ewhere he's in pain, and carry on medicating just above that amount.

Something very vital that I learnt from John when he was treating bertie: "we treat for now, he may not be alive in 6 months months, so we get him out of pain, and medicate him for NOW."

In Rory's case, I think you need to ask - what is the worst that can happen?
If you're already thinking about how badly this may pan out, then he hasn't got anything to loose, and should, in my opinion, be on more pain relief.

He may well be small, but I just don't thin it's enough. Metacam is an anti inflamatory, so in thei respect, is ideal for EC.

to you both x

It's getting to the point where I'm so concerned for him I'm losing my perspective on things, but what I do know is I trust what your telling me, and it makes sense to me- therefore I have called Lucy and left a msg for her to call me back, and if she is not happy to prescribe him a dramatically higher dose twice a day then I will find someone who will x

Felix&Willow wrote:Thanks for this, it's a valid point about the owner suffering more than the bunny, it's killing me to see him stumble about looking like his head is on side ways, he looks like a broken toy and when it first happened I actually thought I might be sick - it looks to me like he is being tortured and I'm allowing it to continue. The said the thought of letting the vet put him to sleep goes against every instinct I have to protect him, plus I love him and don't want to lose him, he is so special to me- and more than anything I want to watch him continue to develop his little life, and go on to have a friend etc, and my daughter will be devastated of we lose him. I had a long chat with the vet last night, she thinks his chances of recovering from the EC are very slim, she said it was amazing how well I got him after the first bought, what's next? Fits? Brain damage? The prognosis isn't good. For the meantime the plan is to keep on the same over the weekend, follwom that we will change drugs but there will be a higher risk to him of side effects, and if he stops eating we are really in trouble. All the time he chims things and purrs and licks my hand I know to keep on xx

Oh Beki

Felix&Willow wrote:It's getting to the point where I'm so concerned for him I'm losing my perspective on things, but what I do know is I trust what your telling me, and it makes sense to me- therefore I have called Lucy and left a msg for her to call me back, and if she is not happy to prescribe him a dramatically higher dose twice a day then I will find someone who will x

Firstly, bear in mind that Bertie was treated arthritis, and Daisy for dental/GI/Abscess issues, but that aside, I still think the dose needs looking at.

It may be worth you asking for referral, John's place is only about 3/4 hour from Reading. You'll need to find out how much it will be, he's not cheap, but is cheaper than he was, now that he's working for himself. Maybe worth a try.

I'm sorry if we're making this more complicated, this is the problem with EC - there is no straight answer Becki, and many owners befor you have been tormented by what to do.
However, he's your bun, you know him, and you must ty to stay objective, and look at this for what it is, and respond accordingly.

Personally I think you're being amazing, and he's responding to what you're doing. The fact he hasn't gone full tilt, and lost his hind legs is down to you.

Non savvy vets wil really struggle with this, because it is quite a specialist subjetc, but I think your vets have actually been brilliant, demonstrating that they are willing to learn. I really do think a call from them to John would help, and would suggest that as your next plan.

keep your chin up, you're doing great

I cant speak highly enough of John Becki, if you can get a referral, and you can get there you should do.

We go to see him from Portsmouth and we go up to Andover, meet him, leave daisy and then go off and do some shopping or for breakfast and then he calls us to tell us when we can get him.

I honestly feel as if my boy could not be in better hands.

Good luck honey x x x x x x x

Lucy is calling John now, she knows of him and respects him ernormously - I asked her to name drop you Jay in the hope he won't charge me a million bucks a minute (praise the lord for petplan) she thinks the dose may be confusing as the syringe in the box is a dog syringe??? I'm givin him o.4mls which is the equivalent of 5kg?? I'm confused!

Florence had Metacam for last week after her spay, although she mainly refused to take it. She is just over 1kg, and the Metacam syringe was measured in kg. I had to give her 6kg once a day. It ruddy confused me at first as I'm used to bunny medicine being in ml.

I'm not sure if that helps at all. Everything crossed for Rory though

Stay strong for little Rory.
Lil had severe head tilt 2 years ago, we was told to pts and I walked out of the vets.
Ros (who jay mentioned) from 'on the wonk (who CherylnBruceflo mentioned) was a rock.
Theres lots of hard work in front of you, Anti b, metam and panacur,
Sleepless nights, feeding a bunny who's mouth is upside down and syringing fluids.
Then we used a hamster dish as she didn't want hand feeding.
Then there's the holding them up while they clean their ears (which you don't want to upset them and tell them that they've been cleaning fresh air)
Then you think its time for exercise as they've been cooped up and they don't think there's anything wrong with them and they set off 100mph and do the wall of death.
Lil's eye was facing the floor and was all scratched, if Rory's eye gets like that buy some lacri-lube from a chemist.
It took well over a month for Lil to show improvement.
She still has slight side effects from it all.
But you have a great bond with Rory and it will only get stronger.
Be strong for him while you are with him, I had to for Lil and then went next door and cried buckets. As they can sense this.
Don't think that I am making light of this.
I just want you to know that there's light at the end of the tunnel.
Oh and I was sick of red bull after 4 weeks!!
But give 'onthewonk' a try. xx

Thank you lil and rons mum xx The eye facing dOwn is the badly affected one , thank goodness it isn't the other way around or je wouldn't be able to see at all xx

Felix&Willow wrote:Lucy is calling John now, she knows of him and respects him ernormously - I asked her to name drop you Jay in the hope he won't charge me a million bucks a minute (praise the lord for petplan) she thinks the dose may be confusing as the syringe in the box is a dog syringe??? I'm givin him o.4mls which is the equivalent of 5kg?? I'm confused!

A 5kg dose is what my boy has....the syringe I have is in KG doses (per kg of animal) rather than ml. Daisy has this twice per day. x x x x

How did Lucy get on with Mr C hun?

Any news Becki?

I have been in court with a client all day and missed lucys call, though she left me a voicemail saying she had spoken to John and to call her back after 2. Rory looked pretty good this morning, he certiankh hasn't deteriated, infact I have out blankets and stuff in his bed and he has trashed the place with his hay so that's a good sign!

will check back later x

Oh if he's trashed his bed that's defo a good sign

Good boy Rory

Long story short: John not convinced it is EC as Rory hasn't had a blood test or xray- Ken Fraser is convinced it's EC as he can recognise it with his special eye equipment (lucy been talking to th both, of course John is bunny expert, ken is eye specialist, and ken has seen Rory - poor Lucy!)- John thinks it may be inner ear (+ eye) - plan : up metacam to 1 ml 2 x per day (it's the dog metacam which is 3 times the strength of the cat metacam apparently) - also Baytril, and carry on with Panacur- see how that goes for a few days, if there isn't a real improvement then I will take him for bloods and xray

John is a real stickler for getting a positive diagnosis, and X-Rays for nearly everything. It's tricky when you have two very clever people who can't agree, but ultimately, without a definitive test, both could be right. Didn't realise he was on cat metacam -it's pretty useless for buns. If anything, your vets will have learnt so much through Rory's plight, that will help buns in the future Becki

Glad he's gonna get Baytrill and the Metacam dose is upped, hope he's ok x

Thanks Jay - no he is on the dog metacam - but when I had initially spoken to Lucy about he dose I told her daisy was on ten times more (which he isn't, it's just that we are measuring in mls I think) - she explained the cat dose as thought I was getting confused! I think having 1 ml twice a day works out as just a bit less than daisy because of ml to kg conversion (? Too much for this bear of small brain!) . Thanks for all your help, what the heck would I do without you?! Minefield! Made me smile that all these people are too-ing and fro-ing over my little ewok, and he has no clue! And how Mr Petplan mist have rubbed his grubby hands together when I insured 3 buns with cover for life- but Rory has cost him a bomb, and will continue to do so ahhh it's a beaitfull world

Felix&Willow wrote: And how Mr Petplan mist have rubbed his grubby hands together when I insured 3 buns with cover for life- but Rory has cost him a bomb, and will continue to do so ahhh it's a beaitfull world

That made me chuckle, good to see you can laugh through it!!

Hope Rory starts to show improvement over the weekend. How is he doing tonight?