Advice on bonding - U/D BONDED!!

Hi Happy Hoppers,

I'm feeling a little overwhelmed at the moment. I don't know where to start, when to start, how to start. I've read so much about bonding (probably too much) that I don't know what I should do. You are the people I trust the most in terms of rabbit "stuff" so I'd love to hear your opinions/strategies.

Also, I've been told I should wait at least a month before I even let them see one another (well oopse, because they've already seen one another through the baby gates). Is that reasonable?

Thanks as always!

A month?? Seems overly cautious to me. With the bondings I have carried out it has been a case of stick them together straight away and assuming there is no violence between them leave them together. Thankfully - in retrospect despite being a nervous wreck - the bondings were easy.

I think the general idea is to use a fairly small bunny neutral area. I have used a pen on the kitchen floor and also an indoor cage. I increased the area they were allowed in once I felt happy the bunnies were comfy around each each other. Things may be harder for you if you don't have a bunny neutral area - could you use your parents place?!!!!!!

Despite horrid to see, mounting and some fur pulling is normal - out and out warfare is not a good sign. I think some people use a water squirter to distract bunnies from fighting but a thick pair of gloves is an idea. It easy to get bitten separating fighting bunnies.

I gave ours mounds of hay to nibble at, litter trays could possibly cause bunnies to become territorial. The most obvious tip is to start the bonding when you are able to be with them for a couple of days to monitor things. As I said my bondings were easy and I guess the bunnies bonded immediately.

I wish you all the luck in the world. Hippo seems a very chilled kind of guy, I am sure he will bond easily. Fingers crossed that Brynn takes to him straight away.

Pretty much as Davina has said although I tend to tailor my approach to the behaviour of the rabbits in question. The absolute golden rule is completely neutral territory with neutral equiptment inside it (bowls, bottles,toys, mats etc.). Likewise I also avoid litter trays, as scent centers they encourage territorial behaviour. A sheet of newspaper is an adequate and safe replacement. Also, best to scatter food rather than use bowls.

I always have a pair of gloves on, a water spray bottle, a broom or mop and a towel and open carrier. These are for my own protection (have nasty scars from diving between fighting bunnies....one hanging off your arm is no fun), to discourage over amarous activity (the spray) and to part them if they get a bit full on (mop or broom). The carrier is incase they need to be split fast and the towel to restrain a struggling bun.

I often start my bonds in a carrier (neutralised) and take the rabbits for a walk around the house and just move them with me whilst I do my chores. They spend 2-3 hours like this assuming they are not 'hate at first sight' and sit amicably together. If any mounting or anything starts I pick the carrier up and start walking again, which usually stops them in their tracks. You can also use the carrier in later stages for a 'time out' if things get to heavy, just pop them back in for 15-20 minutes.

The purpose of this is that it lets the rabbits view each other as a non-threat. They will instinctively huddle together for safety when confined and moving and because of the inability to move about body language cannot be misread.

After the initial period I move them into the small pen or indoor cage for 2-3 days. They can usually be left alone after 48 hours with no incidents. When snuggling, eating and grooming you can assume they are safely bonded.

Mounting, chasing, thumping and honking are all perfectly normal and sometimes fur will be pulled from the back during mounting.

Growling, lunging, circling, kicking and 'locking on' are all bad signs and need to be closesly monitored. I will normally abandon a bond if the rabbits 'lock-on' as it is quite vicious and dangerous.

HTH.

Good luck with it. I hope you have more courage than I did.

Just so I understand Sooz, what's the difference between chasing and circling? Is it really obvious? Is circling just one rabbit doing rings round the other perhaps - I can't decide if my buns were chasing or circling.

Chasing: One rabbit will run away and the other will follow (so you have a submissive bun & a dominant one)

Circling: Mutual chasing, the rabbits will run in a circle following each other and it usually preceeds a scuffle with each looking for the advantage before diving in for a bite. (two dominant buns)

Thanks so much for the advice. I'm glad you think a month is a bit overly cautious too. I feel bad that Brynn has gotten her running area significantly reduced until they are bonded!

Thanks for the idea about doing it at my parents house. I think that's very smart.

My biggest fear is that they are both dominant buns. Despite how laid back they both are, it's obvious in the way they interact with Tori that they both think they are top dog... er... bun! Will two dominant buns ever find love? haha

It should be interesting!

Sooz wrote:Chasing: One rabbit will run away and the other will follow (so you have a submissive bun & a dominant one)

Circling: Mutual chasing, the rabbits will run in a circle following each other and it usually preceeds a scuffle with each looking for the advantage before diving in for a bite. (two dominant buns)

Thank you. I have a suspicion my buns may have been starting to circle when I heard what I thought was growling ... despite Esme being submissive up to then. I really felt the mood had changed. I'll definitely not try it on my own again - I want an expert to witness their behaviour if they go together again.

ElleyMay wrote:

My biggest fear is that they are both dominant buns.

Mine too!

I was really amazed last week when Artie immediately showed dominance He's the softest, soppiest bunny there is, for him to be so bossy was such a surprise - up to the day I put them together I really had no idea who would be most dominant.

I may be talking a load of cack here but I am not convinced that there is always a dominance issue When Herbie was bonded with Hollie and Rosie there was no humping at all, they just mooched around each other and got on. Apart from Herbie's referred aggression causing him to be a grumpalump at times I wouldn't say either him or Hollie is dominant now.

The same goes with BJ and Rosie who are incredibly in tune and comfy around each other. BJ did indulge in some humping when he was first bonded with Rosie but I think this was more due to him not having been long neutered and still having an inkling that he should perform The gorgeous buzzing noise he made gives weight to this argument.

As for Gabe and Noo, Honeybunny kindly bonded these two for me so am not sure of the finer details. Again however, despite being poles apart temperament wise I could not say if either is more dominant.

Of course, these ramblings may mean nothing I may be completely be misreading the bunny body language and as I am not watching them 24/7 I may be missing someting vital.

I guess what I am trying to say is, try not to fret over dominance, it may not be part of the equation

No you're totally correct, with some bunnies there is not a natural dominant partner, just as you can get two dominants together you can also get two submissives. Sometimes it is only over the course of weeks or even months that the actual 'boss' may make themselves known to us, and sometimes we never do find out.

My trio are the easiest bond ever, there was no behaviour between them except flopping, eating, snuggling and mutual grooming. About 2 years ago Fiver was in charge but this year it is most certainly Scout. Point being, the dominant position isn' talways fixed, it can change over time.

Well here is hopping that at least one of them is submissive!

So do you think I could try and bond them this weekend? Or do you think that would be rushing it a bit?

Hippo has more than settled in. I feel really bad that poor Brynn's running/roaming area has been significantly reduced. She seems confused as to why she isn't allowed out all the time per usual. She's like, "But, what did I do mum?"

Sooz, maybe you could just take a trip across the ocean and bond them for me?

I think we all need to come

In all honesty if you have the time this weekend I would give it a go. Bunnies live in the now and Hippo will have no notion of how long he has been with you. I do not think that whether he has been with you a day, a week or a month it would have much impact on the bonding.

A lot of buns have a much more stressful start to bonding. Because of circumstances poor BJ had a car trip of about an hour, was plopped in a strange place and then had Rosie thrust at him pretty much straight away. There then followed another car trip and then another strange place!!!

Hippo, I am quite sure he is well and truly settled in by now so I cannot see any reason to hold off the bonding on his behalf.

Oh, and famous last words, after saying how well mannered my buns are I just caught Hollie humping Herbie's head. To rid her he reared up thus throwing her over his back and straight down the access hole to the ramp Hollie is fine, but I have to admit it was rather a neat trick!

ElleyMay wrote:Sooz, maybe you could just take a trip across the ocean and bond them for me?

As long as you have one submissive rabbit the odds are pretty good with the right approach. Another thing worth mentioning is the owner shouldn't get involved too much, do not sit on the floor with them, stroke them, feed them, pet them...asically try to minimise your interaction with them during the bond as buns can be territorial about their owners as much as food and space. The first bond I ever did for someone else only worked once the owner had left the room, it was awful until then!

Also, with the exception of stress reduction not sure what this wait a month malarky is all about unless your using a recently neutered male and waiting for infertility to be complete and hormones to subside (the 'safe' period post-castration is set between 4-6 weeks dependant on who you ask but is pretty irrelevant if the doe is speyed. When putting a neutered buck with a neutered doe I give two weeks post-castration for hormone levels to drop). When bonding longer term neutered bunnies I usually start within an hour of them both arriving at my house, keeping them on their toes often means they are less settled and have less to be defensive of!

Sooz, can you give me a plan for the Spring when I will try bonding my trio again.

I can't bring them indoors, but can build a new enclosure just for the bonding. Would I separate them at night or leave them together?

Well... I got very excited and brave after reading all these responses. Yesterday, I managed to finish my lesson plans early, and I decided a good way to put off my piles and piles of marking would be to spend the afternoon and evening bonding rabbits instead. I used the bathroom with a blanket on the ground. Neither of them have been in the bathroom and the blanket was one from the closet that they have not been near. I armed myself with all necessary items and gave it a go. I honestly thought these two would be fine because they are SO calm and laid back. All went well for about 2 seconds before Brynn decided she literally wanted Hippo dead. I'm not even talking about humping, nipping, circling, chasing... I'm talking about ears pinned back, rabbit wrapped around one another, fur flying everywhere, and crazy noises! I now understand why some people are so nervous about rabbit fights!!! Brynn is so little she is hard to grab onto, but luckily I was able to grab Hippo and pry them apart. I didn't want to quit right away, so I stayed with it for about 15 mins. They managed to hop around and poop and pee EVERYWHERE . I avoided more scuffles by blocking any lunging attempts. Hippo was much more interested in hopping near Brynn and checking her out but if he was anywhere near her she would attack again. He seems like he is trying to be dominant while she is just plain being aggressive. I called it quits after another fight broke out in the middle of a puddle of pee that got splatterd everywhere (including on me) Gross!

Well... I thought about it and decided that the bathroom is probably not neutral enough. I also decided that there was no way I could put them in a carrier together to carry them around or drive them around because there is no doubt that they will kill one another. Instead, I got another neutral blanket and laid it out on my balcony. The balcony is completely neutral and I thought the sounds from outside might be strange and maybe make them get scared and want to be together. (FYI, the balcony is completely sealed in so it is impossible for a bunny to fall off). I brought them both out and basically it was the same story as yesterday. I even managed to walk away with a war wound. Brynn was able to bite THROUGH the oven mits and take a chunk out of my hand (broken skin and all). I was really trying to endure and I was out there with them for about 25 - 30 mins managing to block any fights before they happened, but they can't even get close to one another.

Yikes!

Needless to say I am a little discouraged.

I am desperately clinging to the hope that Sooz is right and I am the problem! I was the ONLY thing out there that wasn't "neutral" (in Brynn's mind). Brynn is definitely attached to me as I am the only human she will give kisses to and she tends to hang out in whatever room I am in. I can also pet her anytime but other people can only pet her when she is in a cuddly mood. Here is hoping that she is being protective over me and if I'm removed from the situation all will work out!

I've recruited my very animal savvy mother to help me out! On Saturday she will take both buns and try bonding them over at her house. It's going to kill me not to be there (especially because I'll be nervous of them hurting one another) but I think it's the only chance I've got at this point. My mom is really the only person I'd trust to do it... she's amazing with all animals and the fighting wont scare her. Luckily my OH hasn't been here this week because I think the sight of them fighting would actually make him pass out.

What do you guys think now???? Is there still hope?????

Sorry to hear your bonding isnt going very smoothly, but I hope you have more luck soon xx

Oh gosh, what a shame. I'm sorry it hasn't worked out so far. I'm not surprised you're feeling discouraged.

I have no experience bonding but from what you have said, it sounds as if it may be more successful without you there. It sounds as if Brynn is possibly very possessive about you. I really hope it can still work.

Good luck!

Wow, sorry to read this.
I have no experience with fighting at bonding. When I let Alice out, she jumped on top of Arthur to make clear she was boss, but no fighting. Rufus never stopped hopping little Rosie Lee until the point I got scared she could die from stress.
And Matisse is so very French calm he'd bond with anyone, anytime.
It's a good thing you got your mum to help. Certainly a person who is not scared will do a lot of good.
When my ex boyfriend and I moved back together again with our cats, we sprayed all cats with deodorant and that helped I guess, there were no fights involved.
I don't know if this advice has been given, or you might not want to try it, but I heard of people putting the buns in a box together and then start vacuuming. The buns get together as they want to comfort each other. Of course if a bun doesn't mind the noise, this won't help.
Good luck to your mum!!

Oh **** ElleyMay, I was willing Brynn and Hippo to fall in love at first sight. I can't believe little Brynn has been such a mardy moo Little buns can have such big attitudes at times.

I am pleased that your Mum is willing and able to help out, I will be keeping everything crossed that Brynn is better behaved. I so don't want to be discouraging but I think that if Brynn is still determined to take Hippo out, then them bonding together is not meant to be. I am sure Sooz will offer some words of advice.

I do feel for you, bonding can be such a scary and stressful time for bunnymums. Why do bunnies have to make it so difficult for us and themselves?

Loads of hugs

Sixer wrote: Why do bunnies have to make it so difficult for us and themselves?

That's a good question. I just want to sit them both down and say, "Listen, you don't have to love one another you just have to not try and kill one another... and then you can BOTH have free reign of the place and be able to spend as much or as little time with me and Tori as you want!

Ugh!

Why did they both immediately accept Tori (even before she accepted them) without even a moments hesitation, and yet meeting another rabbit is horrifying? COMEON BRYNN!!!!!

At least I have three months.... that's a good amount of time to exhaust every strategy I can think of!

Thanks for the support everyone, and for the Saturday bonding vibes!

I think you have hit the nail on the head about Brynn's attachment to you. She just sees you as part of 'her' gang. Wolfie is like that with Gloria.

If it gives you any comfort, I had the same experience with Wolfs and Glowgirl.

He was originally the mate of Holly (in my signature) who died and he was really lonely. They had only been paired about three months when she died and he was quite young. He pined and sat in the hutch all the time which was unusual. We decided to get him another partner.

Because I wanted a rescue rabbit I contacted our local centre but they didn't have any females. We ended up getting her from Perth so didn't get to see her before we travelled to collect her. When we got there she was huge compared to Wolfs, but I couldn't leave her as she needed a home.

Through lack of experience, I sectioned off a corner of the existing compound and put Gloria in there in a new hutch. Wolfie patrolled a lot, but they seemed really interested in each other but not aggressive. I decided to let them have some time together to see how they did.

It was WWIII. At first Gloria let Wolfie hump her loads. He was at it like a .... a rabbit! Then she got fed up and the circling started. She turned into psycho bunny and so did he. They HATED each other. Fur was flying. She got a bitten nose and she tore his ear and bit right through it. I had to separate them.

I then went a couple of months with them in the same compound, but being let out at different times. It was really difficult because whichever bun was in the enclosed part of the run really wanted out.

One day I came back from TKD on a Sunday and saw an ominous sight. There were lumps of fur all over the compound and both buns were sitting slightly apart panting. It must have been horrific. Gloria had managed to get out of the enclosed bit and she and Wolfie must have had a humdinger of a fight. Thankfully neither of them was hurt. Wolfie looked a little sheepish.

Since that day they are together constantly. They groom each other and are practically together all the time. If one goes on the roof of the hutch, the other follows; if one goes into sitting box on a chair, they have to budge up for the other. It is lovely, but I never would have thought they would do it when they first met.

So keep heart. They are intractable little beasts, but they can be sensible sometimes.

Good luck with your bonding. Hopefully you mum will have more success, but if not, give it time.

Nickie, I'm so glad you posted that as I was feeling very down. Your story does give me hope! Thank you so much!

It's funny too, because last night I had a dream that Hippo escaped from his cage, jumped the baby gates, and let himself into Brynn's cage... they were happily bonded when I realized. Clearly a dream is all it was com the morning!

Well.. I'm heading off to my parents house... rabbits in tow!!!!

Please send bonding vibes!!

Have been thinking about you all day - but am lousy on time differences

Am still thinking about you and the buns and am praying all goes well xxx